If you sold the refurbished gun and transferred it thru an FFL so a background check was performed, would the BATFE care at all how many times you did it?

quote:

Originally posted by mdj:
So is is legal? I have never done it, but I can't see how it would be a problem if one kept their mouth shut and did this on occasion.

On occasion is fine, but the hard question is how often is okay, and when do you become a dealer? It probably helps that he refinishes them - he isn't just a re-seller.

But, laws aside, I see no problem. We live in a free society and you can buy things for whatever reason you like.

quote:

Originally posted by mdj:
So is is legal? I have never done it, but I can't see how it would be a problem if one kept their mouth shut and did this on occasion.

Actually wise advice.
The less the Gubermint and other nosey know-it-alls know about your affairs > the better.
If you let someone dig enough they are bound to find somewhere you did not cross a T or dot an I.
So keep thou mouth shut and live long prosperous life.

quote:

Originally posted by Paten:
If you sold the refurbished gun and transferred it thru an FFL so a background check was performed, would the BATFE care at all how many times you did it?

I don't see this particular scenario as fitting the description of straying into the purview of a dealer. You are transferring a firearm to a dealer, who is then facilitating the gun to a buyer. I think the ATF might start to see you as needing an FFL if you were routinely buying and selling to private individuals outside their system (and ability to track said guns).

Don't believe for a single second that such transactions are not tracked and kept on file.

That's how the "gunshow loophole" works. Many in the gun community will peddle their guns walking the ailses at the gun show, or in private sales, and don't give a damn about who they sell to.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryBF:
That's how the "gunshow loophole" works. Many in the gun community will peddle their guns walking the ailses at the gun show, or in private sales, and don't give a damn about who they sell to.

I disagree. The "gunshow loophole" is a catchphrase meant to impugn all private sales. The original question said nothing about gunshows or lack of seller responsibility. It is about a person who buys and sells a number of guns with the intent of making money.

That seems to be the defining issue, though. Buying and selling with the intent to make money. If the laws listed actual numbers for sales required to have an FFL, this guy would simply sell n-1. Instead, investigators have to investigate, lawyers have to lawyer, and juries have to jury.

The way it stands now, one person can sell a bunch of guns and not be a dealer, while another can sell fewer and be a dealer. Is the law a robotic program, with simple input and output, or should it have a human interaction with understanding of nuance?

There is a guy who sets up a 10 table display at all our local shows buying and selling dozens of guns as private sales. I've personally sold him a couple of guns that I later saw marked up for sale on his tables. I have no idea how he stays under the BATF radar.

quote:

Originally posted by bigwagon:
There is a guy who sets up a 10 table display at all our local shows buying and selling dozens of guns as private sales. I've personally sold him a couple of guns that I later saw marked up for sale on his tables. I have no idea how he stays under the BATF radar.

He may not be under the radar. They could be observing his behavior just as you did and be building a case.

There is no such thing as a "gun show loophole"

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
There is no such thing as a "gun show loophole"

It is more accurately described as the "gunshow no-gun tracking registry loophole".

I'm in the process of thinning the herd. Many have gone up in values, and I'll be making some money. I'm not FFL, and have zero concerns. ATF already visited me previously regarding a couple of guns I sold that ended up in Mexico. I told them the guns I sold to the buyers at the time were all by legal process.

quote:

That's how the "gunshow loophole" works.

Doesn't it make your blood boil just to hear this utterance?
I know it does mine.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

That's how the "gunshow loophole" works.

Doesn't it make your blood boil just to hear this utterance?
I know it does mine.

Sadly, even folks on our side buy into this garbage.

quote:

Originally posted by blindref:
That's an interesting question.

Unfortunately there is no hard number of how many guns you can buy and sell in a certain amount of time written into the laws DMF posted. It's a very gray area, probably by design. The ATF has a lot of discretion as to who and when to bring somebody up on charges.

So at what point does a collector become a dealer - 5, 10, 50, 100 buy / sell gun transactions a year?
The term "occasional" is really left open to interpretation.

What if the person has a regular non gun related 9 to 5 job as their sole source of livelihood, but is an avid collector who buys and sells regularly?

There is nothing on the 4473 form that asks the amount being paid for the firearm that is being bought or transferred. The ATF has no way of knowing if the seller or transferor is making or losing money on the transaction.

It would make for an interesting court case, but I wouldn't want to be the one on trial, or making case law.

+1

shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms

As an enthusiast, I am in the continuous process of upgrading my collection. This involves liquidating items from time to time to finance my latest purchase or when my interests change. 100% of my handgun sales and >95% of my long gun sales have been completed through an FFL dealer. In fact, in PA all private intrastate handgun transfers (with the exception of parent to child and spouse to spouse) must be completed through an FFL dealer or county sheriff's office. (Long gun sales are exempt from this provision and may legally be sold face to face.) As a PA resident, I was always led to believe no amount of legal handgun transfers would raise suspicion since they were processed through an FFL dealer with the buyer completing a 4473, passing an instant check and having the sale recorded in the dealer's bound book (as well as the PA State Police registry). However, non-FFL's who regularly engage in the sale of long guns, especially those who sell at flea markets & etc., may come under some scrutiny. I suspect this may be similarly true in states which permit non-FFL private handgun transfers.

Such folks should describe themselves as an "avid collector" who "often changes his mind", if ever asked in the first place.

Poof: no problem, no license, no unnecessary nonsense or over regulation.

Regardless of the vagueness of the law wrt what number of transactions makes you a dealer, this guy's own statement makes him a dealer on the first transaction. Whatever his intentions, he should go about his business with a more taciturn demeanor.

I'm thinking if you do any of this online it won't matter how much you keep your mouth shut. There will be emails, want adds, and even cell phone calls if they want to dig deep enough. I'll let other people play the game if they so choose.

quote:

Originally posted by bigwagon:
There is a guy who sets up a 10 table display at all our local shows buying and selling dozens of guns as private sales. I've personally sold him a couple of guns that I later saw marked up for sale on his tables. I have no idea how he stays under the BATF radar.

We have a few guys like that at the gun shows I go to. Not 10 tables though. But close to it. They have big signs saying private sales on their tables.

Somewhat off subject. But a couple years back, we had a guy setting up next to us with 3 tables. He had stacks and stacks of new in the box palmetto state armory AR-15's. He had private sale signs on his tables. He took credit cards and collected sales tax (I doubt the state ever saw a dime). He was selling them like crazy. Then he stopped showing up to the shows. Come to find out the ATF caught up with him. He was having money issues. He was buying all these guns through his gun shop with his license. Then running a check on himself and transferring a bunch over to himself to sell at shows. He knew what was about to come down on him when the ATF started investigating, and he shot himself.

I have only lost money on a few firearms that I bought new.

I prefer to flip ammo and accessories

quote:

Originally posted by bigwagon:
There is a guy who sets up a 10 table display at all our local shows buying and selling dozens of guns as private sales. I've personally sold him a couple of guns that I later saw marked up for sale on his tables. I have no idea how he stays under the BATF radar.

He's probably not under the radar. They are picking off bigger fish and working their way down to him.