I know this is gonna sound naive, but...

Is it common in your area for people to buy firearms (either abused/neglected or for an exceptional deal) solely for the purpose of resale? Was standing in my local shop & some putz walks in and asks if they have any cheap long guns he can refinish & sell for a profit. Had no qualms telling the counter guy that's what he intended.
I buy solely for me. Haven't sold or traded one in the entire time I've been buying (admittedly not that long, but still). Will not likely, until I liquidate as part of estate planning as I have no heirs.

Perhaps he is an FFL that is known to LGS staff?

If you don't have an FFL, the BATFE is going to frown on that sort of thing.

quote:

Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
If you don't have an FFL, the BATFE is going to frown on that sort of thing.

This.

quote:

Originally posted by comet24:

quote:

Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
If you don't have an FFL, the BATFE is going to frown on that sort of thing.

This.

That.

So is is legal? I have never done it, but I can't see how it would be a problem if one kept their mouth shut and did this on occasion.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:

quote:

Originally posted by comet24:

quote:

Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
If you don't have an FFL, the BATFE is going to frown on that sort of thing.

This.

That.

And The Other.

quote:

Originally posted by mdj:
So is is legal? I have never done it, but I can't see how it would be a problem if one kept their mouth shut and did this on occasion.

No it's not legal as far as I understand the law.

You can certainly sell firearms you own.

Buying them with the intention of "fixing them up" and selling for a profit and the ATF will consider you a FFL. If your not a FFL, the ATF is going to be very unhappy and you will not enjoy how the ATF expresses this unhappiness.

quote:

Originally posted by mdj:
So is is legal? I have never done it, but I can't see how it would be a problem if one kept their mouth shut and did this on occasion.

It is not legal to buy and sell firearms frequently if you do not have an FFL. People have been prosecuted for doing it.

Not legal but nobody can stop you from buying something and not liking it, then selling.

quote:

Originally posted by billnchristy:
Not legal but nobody can stop you from buying something and not liking it, then selling.

There's only so many times you can use that "excuse".

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:

quote:

Originally posted by billnchristy:
Not legal but nobody can stop you from buying something and not liking it, then selling.

There's only so many times you can use that "excuse".

Not the same as ex-girlfriends?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

18USC921(a)(11):
(11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or . . .

18USC921(a)(21)(C) & (D):
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;



https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

18USC922(a)(22):
(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection . . .

18USC922(a)(1)(A):
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(1) for any person—
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce . . .

If you are buying guns with the purpose of "making money" by buying low and selling high, you are no longer a private seller. You are a dealer, and then require an FFL.

The ATF has a very tiny sense of humor when it comes to such things.

I get that people buy guns, and sell guns for personal reasons. They don't like them, they want new ones and need to sell old ones to finance them, etc...

But if it is for profit... You are a dealer, not an enthusiast.

Get your FFL then.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:

quote:

Originally posted by billnchristy:
Not legal but nobody can stop you from buying something and not liking it, then selling.

There's only so many times you can use that "excuse".

I wonder where the line is there. Is there a magic number that trips the "dealer" status? I went through a period a few years back where I bought and sold quite a few guns. I never bought one with the intentions of selling it or trying to make a profit. Some times there was a gun I wanted to try and didn't end up liking it so it got sold, or I'd buy one, find one I wanted more, and would sell that one to finance the new one.

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:

Get your FFL then.

That simple huh?

Do you know anything about the process to getting licensed?

I'm not arguing with anything you said in your post. With our BS laws a person must have a license to do something like that. But they make it next to impossible to get one if you operate out of your house. And it says right on the application that you can't apply if you are going to do gun shows only. So then what?

He is playing with fire if he doesn't have his FFL.

The problem is there no clear cut line in the sand. If he buys one gun per month and sells different gun every month will he attract the ATF's attention? What about 2 or 3 or 10? It's kinda like Wily E. Coyote running off the edge of the cliff. By the theme he's in trouble he's well off the point of no return. This guy's playing with fire unless he has that FFL. If he has one, there's probably better ways to do this. I know of one gunsmith with an FFL who had a deal with a distributor to pick up Mosen Nagants. He'd buy 3-4 at a time strip them down, put them in new stocks, put a muzzle brake and scope on them then sell them with a tin of ammo. He didn't make a fortune, but it filled a nitche market that he had found for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfe 21:
I know this is gonna sound naive, but...

Is it common in your area for people to buy firearms (either abused/neglected or for an exceptional deal) solely for the purpose of resale? Was standing in my local shop & some putz walks in and asks if they have any cheap long guns he can refinish & sell for a profit. Had no qualms telling the counter guy that's what he intended.
I buy solely for me. Haven't sold or traded one in the entire time I've been buying (admittedly not that long, but still). Will not likely, until I liquidate as part of estate planning as I have no heirs.

Back to the original question.

Using his example here, yes, the first guy he talks about in the gun store is an example of someone that needs to get his FFL to be legal using his own statement. Based on Wolfe's discription of himself, he is not.

The BATF may be vague on some rules but that's a textbook description of someone that needs his license to sell.

That's an interesting question.

Unfortunately there is no hard number of how many guns you can buy and sell in a certain amount of time written into the laws DMF posted. It's a very gray area, probably by design. The ATF has a lot of discretion as to who and when to bring somebody up on charges.

So at what point does a collector become a dealer - 5, 10, 50, 100 buy / sell gun transactions a year?
The term "occasional" is really left open to interpretation.

What if the person has a regular non gun related 9 to 5 job as their sole source of livelihood, but is an avid collector who buys and sells regularly?

There is nothing on the 4473 form that asks the amount being paid for the firearm that is being bought or transferred. The ATF has no way of knowing if the seller or transferor is making or losing money on the transaction.

It would make for an interesting court case, but I wouldn't want to be the one on trial, or making case law.