quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

We thought you wuz dead, Milliron. Good to see you, 'long as you ain't no zombay...

Thought I wuz dead. Turned out I just lived in Ohio.

Good to see you back, Milliron, you've been missed.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:

quote:

Originally posted by 357fuzz:
Well maybe the center left liberals need to grow a backbone and confront the more radical extremists to the left of them. Their silence is just aiding and abetting the radical left.

You can replace "left" with "right", and replace "liberals" with "conservatives" in that sentence, and still have an accurate statement.

Maybe.

I think rational principled discussions with anyone capable of the same are edifying. If I find that’s not possible anymore, I state the true principles and step back. I’ve learned that snark, condescension and personal attacks convince only that one cannot adequately defend his perspectives. This of course applies to all on the political spectrum.

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Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Hmmm... If there are in fact a large group of center lefts, why havent we heard more about them and from them?

A few days ago I came across this article that explains group self-censorship. I think it explains a lot about why we haven't heard much from the center-left or center-right lately.

Illustrated Guide to Self-Censorship

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Originally posted by ArtieS:
This is a conservative board, and we have driven many liberal members away.

Some. Not all I am, depending upon ones perspective, either a (Classical) Liberal or a Libertarian.

I am most definitely not a Conservative.

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:
We do ourselves and our cause no favors by consigning those to our left who love America, and who wish to see her prosper, to the same hell to which we condemn the far left, Antifa, CRT, the Woke, and modern progressivism.

(Note: I added a comma to that quote. I had a hard time parsing that last sentence until I put it in.)

I have made this very same point numerous times, here, when I've seen members use the word "liberal" when what they really mean is "leftist." Today's leftists--or at least the ones from which we see and hear the most, are not in the least bit liberal. They are the antithesis of liberalism.

I've pleaded for years: Please stop giving these people the cover of liberalism. Their goals, their policies, and their behavior is far closer to fascism or communism than it is liberalism. By referring to them as "liberals," you're lending to them credence of which they're wholly undeserving.

quote:

Some. Not all I am, depending upon ones perspective, either a (Classical) Liberal or a Libertarian.

I am most definitely not a Conservative.

As am I. I would describe myself as a Classical Liberal Constitutionalist. And like you, I have some libertarian leanings.

rightwire and darthfuster have posted sentiments very close to my own. But I must admit that in my advanced years I have little tolerance for those who so quickly stray from presenting a position to ad hominem nonsense. You simply can not have a meaningful discussion with such people. And sadly I have found them all too common among self proclaimed democrats. Perhaps as implied in this thread I have encountered vocal rabid leftists rather than the more rational silent liberals. Thankfully I find I am spared much of this in recent times as I don't get out, interacting with the general population, as much as I did in my younger years.

Oh and FWIW I consider myself a constitutionalist rather than proclaiming an affiliation for a political party. The Deep State and "uni-party" politics disgust me as do RINOs.

I to associate to being the classical liberal.
Leftists hate me, conservatives accuse me of being too leftist.

It's great being libertarian/classical liberal.
Conservatives think they fit the definition of "Classical liberalism is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market and laissez-faire economics; civil liberties under the rule of law with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech." yet too often they seek to actually restrict others who do not fit the views they like.

The same goes for the leftists. Who REALLY want to just restrict all. You know, for the good of society and all.

It is difficult to explain, but it feels like there has been a sea change. Growing up, and in my younger working years, it seemed like, “Everybody here loves America and wants to move us forward as a society.” Sure, there were differences between R & D, but “We all wanted what was best for the country, we just differed a little on how to get there.” We could easily have discussions, concede some points, recognize the sincerity of the other side, have them concede some points and recognize our sincerity, even if we couldn’t always get to agreement on everything.

Now, maybe that is looking back with rose colored glasses, maybe I was hopelessly naive then and it really wasn’t like that, but that is how I remember it.

Today, it feels very different. It feels as though a large portion of the other side is out to destroy, not build with a slightly different approach or focus.

I suspect it isn’t as bad as it seems, that the folks on the fringes are just getting louder, but it does seem more and more that everyone on both sides is significantly less willing to listen and entertain opposing ideas. For example, I suspect that if one supported Barry Goldwater many folks registered as a D would disagree strongly, but might be willing to have a conversation about what it was that you saw in Mr. Goldwater’s policies and discuss them on their merits, whether they agreed with them or not. I don’t get that impression *at all* about President Trump. Several (otherwise quite reasonable) folks I know who likely have a D after their name would take an entirely different stance about President Trump. They are viscerally opposed and if you think there is anything positive to say about President Trump or his policies, there is absolutely nothing to discuss with you as far as they are concerned.

Granted, President Trump has not shirked from confrontation, rather he has embraced it enthusiastically. His being such a polarizing figure is not entirely without some help from him and his style, but it goes a lot further than that. I suspect that were Governor Desantis or Senator Cruz the nominee next year the knives would be out for them too, and those knives would be just as sharp as they have been for President Trump.

I dunno how to do it, but I would sure like to get back to a place where we focus on moving the country forward and jawbone/arm-wrestle/cooperate to do that, compromising on details, but working together to better life for all of us.

After typing all that, maybe an idea might be to talk about what better would look like. Is it more jobs, it it safer streets, is it <whatever>? I suspect that we might have an easier time across the political spectrum agreeing on what we want for our families and our communities. If we can agree on at least some of that, maybe we can do better working together to compromise on a path to get there.

Thanks for posting this Artie. Agreed with all points.....we need more discussion and critical thinking about what we want as a society, and the loud fringes are drowning out the debate.

While I wouldn't classify myself as a classic liberal, I do lean that way on some issues. I am more libertarian in most things I find.

Wilson and FDR definitely intended to destroy the US - they were just hampered by the political atmosphere at the time.

Alright, I’ll bite.

One of the advantages of being here these last sixteen years is I can track to a degree how political thought on the forum has trended. And the interesting thing to me is that political thought nationwide has left folks here and to a somewhat lesser extent, me as well—-behind.

I’m fifty-four now, and the political energy now very much belongs to those younger than us. I’m an early Gen-X’er and like most people here, grew up with Vietnam, the Cold War, Walter Cronkite, Ronald Reagan, no Internet and rotary dial phones. I have or had basic assumptions: the U.S. was basically good if flawed, the government more or less had an interest in looking after everyone, even if we didn’t always agree how, and most people could agree on these things. Now all of it feels up for grabs, and this is disorienting at best and downright threatening at worst. So I feel your angst.

There is anger on both left and right. The center-left finds the super left vacuous and irritating, if not quite as threatening as the right does (these are largely people who have trouble tying their own shoes, let alone plotting the Communist takeover of the U.S.). The center-right seem to be exceedingly frustrated with the super right. The justifiable anger in rural areas has little traction in the cities and frightens what’s left of the middle class suburbs. So politically, the U.S. is one big emotional ball right now. Combine all of that with a feckless political class on both sides of the aisle and the frustration is obvious.

People don’t move as fast as the Internet wants them to. I guaranfuckingtee you I don’t. I see this with my kids, who are almost 16 and 17. They think I’m a throwback because I like guns, dirty jokes and cheap beer. I talk shit, am not always politically correct and think generally that life is hard and you’d better get a helmet. I don’t think you’re always in the right just because you happen to be a minority and I am not convinced that a fifteen year old girl is actually a boy because she decided that one morning. I was raised that way (by liberals, for the record) No apologies. I also think gay people should be able to marry the ones they love, the government has turned into a kleptocracy, and U.S. industry should stay home.

So what we have come to think of old political definitions don’t fit very well now. The U.S. society is remaking itself, and I think it’s going to be O.K., but I’ll allow it can feel kind of scary from time to time.

Million, glad to see you back.

ArtieS, my fear is that absent the centrists from both sides standing together and putting their feet down, the pendulum will continue to swing further and further with each oscillation. The biggest problem I see, especially from the radical left, is that they are no longer content to leave those alone that want to be left alone. They are trying to force everyone, even centrists on their own side, to accept and normalize their twisted views and abandon traditional values that have set America apart from the rest of the world.