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Age Quod Agis
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I have taken to reading The Liberal Patriot. It's a newsletter published on Substack by co-editors John Halpin, Ruy Teixeira, Peter Juul, and Brian Katulis for the purpose of reviving classical, center left, American politics.

I understand that some of you may think "why the fuck would you do that" and the answer is, that this brand of American liberalism has historically been the counterpoint to classical conservatism. These two forces have been the engine that have driven America to be the most successful, wealthy, powerful, and influential power that the world has ever seen. And we need more of this point of view, not less of it, to counter the pernicious effects of a growing American Left.

This is a conservative board, and we have driven many liberal members away. We are poorer for it. Tightly reasoned policy persciptions and honed arguments do not come from residing in an echo chamber. They come from engaging with well meaning opponents with differing views, and seeking to both understand, but also to convince, the other of the merits of a position.

America will always have a center left. The key is to defeat the far left, and to deal effectively with the center left. The writers of The Liberal Patriot, and the large portion of the country that their views reflect are not our enemies. They are our neighbors, co-workers, friends, fellow parishioners, and often, our children.

We do ourselves and our cause no favors by consigning those to our left who love America, and who wish to see her prosper to the same hell to which we condemn the far left, Antifa, CRT, the Woke, and modern progressivism. They are not the same people, and they do not hold the same opinions or propose the same policies. Americans of good conscience must find a way to engage with, live with, and find common ground with, those with whom we do not see directly eye-to-eye. Our survival as a nation depends on good faith engagement with our political opponents. These people need our support and engagement to defeat those to their left, and not feel that they are voiceless, alone in the wilderness. They need to know that they won't be cancelled, that there is a vast America who will engage with them, and contest good faith arguments in the national interest.

In view of opening what I hope becomes a series of discussions on rebuilding a common vision of America, I offer the following on Epictetus, a Stoic philosopher, who's works have been recently re-translated, for discussion.

I look forward to a robust discussion.

Please don't "TLDR, liberals suck, we can never trust them or deal with them, they don't have "good faith", fuck them" in this thread. If that's your opinion, start your own thread.

The Liberal Patriot

quote:
A Handbook for Public Life
What the ancient Roman philosopher Epictetus can teach us about politics and public life today

Peter Juul

Of three main ancient Roman Stoics whose works come down to us across the millennia, those of the early second-century philosophy teacher Epictetus appear the least outwardly concerned with politics and public life. Neither an emperor like Marcus Aurelius nor a statesman and imperial advisor like Seneca, Epictetus was born into slavery and suffered a crippling leg injury at the hands of one of his masters. He served at the imperial court in Rome during the reign of the mad emperor Nero, where he attended the lectures of the leading Stoic philosopher of the day, Musonius Rufus. After his emancipation, Epictetus began teaching philosophy in Rome himself—only to be expelled from the imperial capital along with other philosophers by the Emperor Domitian.

Politics and public life today may not be as hazardous to life and limb as they were in ancient Rome, at least not in societies with a modicum of democracy and basic physical security. But they’re still a bruising, messy affair that’s not for the faint of heart. It won’t be smooth sailing by any means when we engage in public life, and we’ve got to know that going in—all without succumbing to the corrosive cynicism and fatalism along the way. As the scholar Robin Waterfield’s new translation of Epictetus’ complete works makes clear, the ancient Stoics still have much to teach us even in twenty-first century America when it comes to navigating the treacherous waters of politics and public life.

After his exile Epictetus set up a school in Nicopolis, a town on the northwestern coast of modern Greece, where he lived until the end of his days and taught philosophy far from the hustle and bustle of Rome. He never wrote any philosophical treatises for publication, and no private philosophical journal akin to Marcus’ Meditations survives. His two main extant works—the Discourses, after-class lecture notes recorded by his student Arrian, and the Handbook, itself a concise distillation of the Discourses—come from his time as one of the Roman world’s most sought-after philosophy instructors. In the four books of Discourses we still possess, Epictetus dwells principally on the practical application of Stoic philosophy to day-to-day life, or what he called the “art of living.”

But this focus on the everyday doesn’t mean Epictetus has nothing to say about politics and public life; quite the contrary. As a slave serving at the imperial court, for instance, Epictetus witnessed the politics of Rome and the escalating chaos of Nero’s reign first-hand. What’s more, his Discourses and Handbook are shot through with political imagery and references to relatively recent imperial history—events well within living memory. Most importantly, though, Epictetus gives us profound but practical advice on how we ought to conduct ourselves as we engage in politics and public life.

With both his specific remarks on politics and his more general advice on the art of living, Epictetus conveys three main lessons about participation in public life—lessons we’d all do well to heed today.

Keep Calm and In Control of Yourself

If there’s any one piece of wisdom Epictetus hoped to impart to his students, it’s the absolute necessity of what he called self-possession: the proposition that we really ought to keep ourselves calm and remain in control of ourselves even in the worst situations. It’s a deceptively straightforward idea, uncomplicated on the surface but containing a multitude of intricate facets when examined closely—and one that, as Epictetus himself repeatedly acknowledged, is as difficult to put into practice as it is easy to describe.

For Epictetus, self-possession means first and foremost relying on our faculty of reason—what he and the other ancient Stoics called our dominant faculty—and to stay level-headed when confronted with the volatile and often frustrating nature of public life. We may be passionate about a particular issue, candidate, or set of principles, for instance, but we can’t let ourselves be governed by our passions. Here, it’s important to note that the Stoics and other ancient schools of philosophy defined “passions” very differently than we do today; for the ancient Stoics, at least, the passions weren’t mere enthusiasms for a favorite sports team or musician but the destructive, negative emotions that take hold of us and cloud our judgement when our desires aren’t fulfilled. As Epictetus himself put it in the Discourses, “the root cause of passion is wanting something and not getting it.”

It’s not hard to see that definition at play today in the despair that flourishes today on both left and right when a particular candidate doesn’t win a race or a specific policy fails to make its way through Congress. What happens in these circumstances goes beyond the simple, natural disappointment inherent in a lost election or legislative vote—it’s the sense that all is lost, an anguish fueled by fear, anxiety and anger. But as Epictetus and his fellow Stoics would remind us, we do neither ourselves nor the causes we believe in any good when we allow these passions to impair our thinking and make us miserable.

Here, a concept at the heart of Epictetus’ thought and indeed Stoic philosophy in general proves exceptionally useful: the dichotomy of control. It’s another deceptively simple observation found in the very first lines of the Handbook: “Some things are up to us and some are not. Up to us are judgment, inclination, desire, aversion—in short, whatever is our own doing. Not up to us are our bodies, possessions, reputations, public offices—in short, whatever isn’t our own doing.” Success and failure in politics and public life are not up to us, but how we conduct ourselves as we pursue political goals and participate in public life is up to us—and that’s what matters. Or as Epictetus reminded his students: life itself may be an indifferent in and of itself, “but what we make of life isn’t indifferent.”

Two important corollaries follow from this more general counsel to keep calm and in control of ourselves. First, we ought to be intellectually flexible and open to new or discordant information in our politics—not dogmatic and close-minded. Indeed, Epictetus remarked that stubbornly persisting on a misguided course of action showed “the vigor of a someone with a brain fever.” Second, we should remember that what makes us upset in politics and public life isn’t what other people say or do, either about ourselves, our favored policies, or our core beliefs, but our own opinions about their utterances and actions. When we allow others to upset us, Epictetus warns in the Handbook, we effectively hand our minds over “into the keeping of any random person.”

Taken together, these two notions also help us keep in mind the possibility that we might be wrong—and that our interlocutors and opponents might simply be mistaken and incorrect rather than wicked and incorrigible. Of course, such inveterate characters do exist and must be opposed in appropriate ways. But if our political rivals are merely wrong, as they usually are, it does us no good to work ourselves up into a frenzy over their misguided rhetoric and dubious policy views. As Epictetus observes, another person “can only conform to his views, not yours” and, if they happen to be inaccurate, “he’s the one who’s harmed, because he’s also been deceived.” If we can’t convince our political opponents of our own views, he argues, we shouldn’t insult or get angry with our interlocutors but recognize our own limitations instead.

It's a spirit of generosity and tolerance we ought bring to our political debates and public life more often today.

Elections Aren’t the Only Things You Can Lose

As Epictetus regularly notes, we all too often trade our most valuable personal asset—our integrity—for things of far less worth, whether financial wealth or political power. “Destroying the good citizen and the friend in me,” he argues, “is no help to anyone—not to me, not to the city, not to my friends.” Indeed, society would be better off with “another trustworthy and respecting citizen” than one who devotes his ill-gotten gains to the benefit of the community. If we don’t maintain our integrity, Epictetus stresses, we’ll fail our duties as citizens and be of no use to society at large.

That line of thought has two main implications. First, we should all have lines we won’t cross—or we ought to at least realize what it is exactly we’re giving up in exchange for whatever it is we’re pursuing or want to achieve. Despite the importance of such matters, we rarely think ahead of time about what lines we’re willing to cross and why. More broadly, though, we need to keep politics and public life in proper perspective. It’s rarely if ever worth trading our own personal integrity for political power, and perhaps only marginally more worth exchanging it for specific political and policy gains like a Supreme Court seat or the passage of a piece of legislation deemed vital.

That’s not a counsel against compromise; far from it. Indeed, Epictetus himself agrees that an individual should attend to some wealthy and politically powerful benefactor in order to “have performed your function as a citizen, a brother, a friend.” But he goes on to warn that we should keep what’s at stake in perspective and not debase ourselves to achieve our goals: “Is the matter important enough for me to go to his door? Very well, I’ll goal. Is it worth discussing? Very well, I’ll discuss it with him. But if I have to kiss his hand and flatter him with words of praise, forget it.”

In other words, we ought not be so rigid in our political and policy views that we refuse to make reasonable concessions or bargain with others to get things done. Instead, Epictetus exhorts us to conduct ourselves with requisite integrity in politics and public life. Inflexibility is no virtue—Epictetus actively advised against it, after all, saying that stubbornness makes faulty judgments “uncorrectable and incurable.” The example of Cato the Younger, the ancient Roman statesman whose own refusal to compromise helped bring down the Republic, ought likewise to serve as a cautionary tale despite his heroic status among later Roman Stoics like Seneca.

In public life, then, self-awareness and attention to our own actions are an absolute necessity. If we want to win an election, enact a policy, or work in government, we ought to do so in ways we won’t regret—whether a day or a decade later. That’s a reminder too many of us need today, but it’s also a call to cultivate personal interests and lives beyond politics and public affairs. If we have these enthusiasms and responsibilities, that means we we’re less likely to lose ourselves when we lose elections or votes—as we inevitably will.

Just as importantly, though, a life outside politics helps us keep public life in perspective—and reminds us of its true nature and real value.

Remember the Nature and Purpose of Public Life

Along with the other ancient Stoics, Epictetus considered participation in the public life of our communities to be a fundamental philosophical duty for every individual—one rooted in human nature at its most elemental. “After all, what is a human being?” he asks in the Discourses. “A part of a city—in the first place, a part of the city made up of gods and human beings, and then a part of the city that is supposed to be our nearest and dearest, which is a small copy of the universal city.” To put it another way, we’re all in this together.

Accordingly, Epictetus views “citizen” as one of the leading roles we play in life, along with other essential roles like parent, child, spouse, sibling, and friend. These roles derive from our social relationships, “whether natural or acquired,” and they help tell us how we should conduct ourselves in any given situation—namely, that we should act in accordance with the role that seems most relevant under the circumstances. In the end, though, it’s ultimately up to us to play our shared roles as citizens skillfully, and how well we play them is what really matters when we engage in politics and public life.

Indeed, citizenship’s prominent place as one of humanity’s basic social roles alongside the likes of parenthood and friendship illustrates just how important Epictetus and the ancient Stoics saw involvement in public life. They regarded it as nothing less than intrinsic to their own philosophy of life and believed it to be a major, defining point of contrast with their main philosophical rivals, the Epicureans. In fact, Epictetus goes so far as to mock Epicurus and his followers several times in the Discourses for what he sees as their failure to acknowledge humanity’s inherently social nature—and the duty that human nature imposes on us as individuals to participate in public life in whatever capacity we can.

What does this duty of citizenship entail? Epictetus is quite direct and explicit here, stating that when death arrives for him—as if must for us all—he’d like to be found “doing something that’s proper for a human being—something benevolent, something that contributes to the common good, something honorable.” Simply put, participation in public life requires a generous and tolerant attitude, honorable conduct, and a focus on the common good above all else. We fulfill our philosophical duties as human beings and play our role as citizens well when we act in accordance with these principles, whether with reference to our own society or humanity as a whole.

When it comes to politics and public life, then, Epictetus and the ancient Stoics would say that our ultimate goal is to contribute in a constructive way to the whole—whether that’s our friends and families, our local communities, our nations, or our common humanity.

At the same time, however, Epictetus reminds us to remain alert to the difficulties and hazards inherent in politics and public life. As he counsels early on in the Handbook, “Whenever you’re about to start on some activity or other, remind yourself of its characteristic features.” Epictetus remains well aware that politics can and often does devolve into the sordid, dishonorable, and disreputable; indeed, his numerous vignettes of ancient Roman public figures invariably involve some high-ranking senator or imperial grandee forced to cope with exile or imminent death at the hands of one emperor or another. Not for nothing does Epictetus dedicate one of the entries in the Discourses to a discussion of the “proper attitude to have toward tyrants.”

We’ve got to understand that we’ll inevitably come in for malicious criticism and painful personal attacks as we fulfill our duty to participate in public life, as hard as that may be in practice. As Epictetus might tell us, that’s simply part and parcel of the enterprise upon which we’ve embarked. It’s not at all easy, but we’ll be better off—and more effective—if we know and accept that reality going in.

Nor can we expect permanent success or failure in politics or public life. Our victories will almost always be temporary and incomplete, but so will our defeats and setbacks. More to the point, though, they’re not up to us—it’s possible to give a cause or campaign our all and still lose. All of which brings us back to the dichotomy of control and the first lines of the Handbook: “Some things are up to us and some things are not.” When it comes to politics and public life, we can only control our own effort—and that’s more than enough.

While Epictetus concerned himself first and foremost with the art of living in the widest possible sense, we can still learn much from him and his Stoic philosophy as we carve our own path toward a better politics and healthier public life. We’d do well to listen to what he has to say—and put it to work in our own troubled public life today.

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"I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation."

Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II.
 
Posts: 13001 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: November 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The success of a solution usually depends upon your point of view
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center left. They are our neighbors, co-workers, friends, fellow parishioners, and often, our children.
our left who love America, and who wish to see her prosper
They are not the same people, and they do not hold the same opinions or propose the same policies


You've described a close friend of of over 50 years. We met when we were on swim team in the 6 and under group and have been close friends ever since. She lives in Berkley, CA and is a best described as a center left liberal.

We just spent 5 days together including 2 days of just us driving from PA to FL and We talked about ever subject under the sun including politics. We never argued and agreed to disagree on a few things but we found out that we are closer on many issues then we would have thought. I don't think that we converted each other on any issues but we did find a lot of common ground. It made me realize that when we talk about the silent majority it is not a group on the right but it is the group in the middle.



“We truly live in a wondrous age of stupid.” - 83v45magna

"I think it's important that people understand free speech doesn't mean free from consequences societally or politically or culturally."
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Posts: 3922 | Location: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: September 10, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmmm... If there are in fact a large group of center lefts, why havent we heard more about them and from them?


End of Earth: 2 Miles
Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles
 
Posts: 16466 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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^^^^

Intimidated by what we've all seen happen to "extreme MAGA Republicans"? I'd bet they're not accessing alternative media sources so they're getting a full on scary and threatening message from the usual suspects.




Set the controls for the heart of the Sun.
 
Posts: 8616 | Location: Flown-over country | Registered: December 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Age Quod Agis
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quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Hmmm... If there are in fact a large group of center lefts, why havent we heard more about them and from them?

Because they are keeping their heads down, afraid of being abused, doxxed, shouted down, and ostracized based on their deviation from leftist dogma.

Pew Research https://www.pewresearch.org/po...09/progressive-left/ estimates that only 6% of the population, and only 12% of Dems/Lean Dem are true lefties. The problem for us, and everyone else is, they make all the noise, and have captured the heights of culture in Hollywood, the major universities, many school systems, the major news sources (both traditional and new media), certain state governments, and as street protestors. Consequently, their voice is heard far above their numbers, and their influence is felt far beyond their real reach. They are committed, but small. The center left do not want their jobs, livelihood, children, and property put at risk by offending those who are willing to use public pressure, and even violence to get their way. They need support against a common foe.

By engaging with the sane liberal, the center left, we have an opportunity to support the movement of the country back to a rational center, and win on the margins as we have been doing in Florida, and other center right states.

Florida isn't where it is by rejecting the center left, it is where it is by supporting the center left against the crazy left. Many DeSantis policies have significant support from rational democrats because they can't stand where the left wing of their party is driving them.

We improve our position, and even gain support and members as principled conservatives by engaging positively with the center left.



"I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation."

Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II.
 
Posts: 13001 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: November 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well maybe the center left liberals need to grow a backbone and confront the more radical extremists to the left of them. Their silence is just aiding and abetting the radical left.
 
Posts: 4161 | Registered: January 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shall Not Be Infringed
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The problem with center left liberals is not so much with their beliefs, for rational discussion can be had over differences of opinion with a liberal. The larger issue is rather that, by and large, they continue to support the radical left and the radical leftist agenda with their votes. That is the challenge that needs to be overcome...


____________________________________________________________

If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !!
Trump 2024....Make America Great Again!
"May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20
Live Free or Die!
 
Posts: 9543 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Whatever the grade of socialist, they always end up putting a madman in power.

Wilson, FDR, Stalin, Hitler. Once “people” become “chattel,” they have rejected the humanity of others.

It may be possible to discuss it with them, they may be willing to conceal their more monstrous impulses - they may even be classical liberals, who do belong in America, but think being “green” means being Democrat - and nothing inherently wrong with a “green” philosophy.

But once someone embraces enslaving others for purposes other than maintaining social order/slightly enslaving the entire populace for civic investment, they’ve stopped being human.
 
Posts: 5981 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Low Country, SC. | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Don't Panic
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In case anyone might have missed this in the OP
quote:
Please don't "TLDR, liberals suck, we can never trust them or deal with them, they don't have "good faith", fuck them" in this thread. If that's your opinion, start your own thread.
People of good conscience getting engaged with the ideas of Epictetus is a good thing.
quote:
the proposition that we really ought to keep ourselves calm and remain in control of ourselves even in the worst situations.
quote:
a concept at the heart of Epictetus’ thought and indeed Stoic philosophy in general proves exceptionally useful: the dichotomy of control. It’s another deceptively simple observation found in the very first lines of the Handbook: “Some things are up to us and some are not. Up to us are judgment, inclination, desire, aversion—in short, whatever is our own doing. Not up to us are our bodies, possessions, reputations, public offices—in short, whatever isn’t our own doing.”
 
Posts: 15205 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: October 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
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quote:
Originally posted by ArtieS:
This is a conservative board, and we have driven many liberal members away.
Reading this, most members who really know me in my capacity as forum admin will be inclined to say "Oh, Para isn't going to like reading this."

You would have no reason to think otherwise. Artie's comment- which I happen to acknowledge- stems from a long conversation he and I had a few nights ago. One of the subjects of the conversation was the decreased amount of new content being posted. As I have mentioned a few times recently- without new content, this board will become a desert. With less new content, we will have fewer visitors, since there will be less to read, and this will in turn further reduce the amount of new content. The result will be that in time, the board will dry up and eventually die.

Thinking back about the left-of-center members we've lost over the past few years, most of it seems to have been related to their open hatred of Donald Trump or, before Trump, their hatred of conservative ideas. Regular members will recall that we've had members like 46and2, who was and is welcome here, but after SCOTUS took up Roe v. Wade, he told us he was leaving to go out into the world to fight for women's reproductive rights, like he was fucking Kwai Chang Caine from the old TV series Kung Fu. Ridiculous.

However, yes, there have been some leftist members who were flat run off by yours truly, but always for cause. Nevertheless, gone is gone and after they are gone, there is no discussion/debate to be had.

I appreciate Artie's efforts with the creation of this thread, and we- that is, I- need to become more tolerant and less reactionary of leftist ideas in the forum. I will point out that no one wants to listen those who will not listen to them, and the Trump haters we've seen come and go since 2015 are not willing to listen to anyone who doesn't share their feelings towards the man. But, there are people who are left of center who will actually engage in a give-and-take, and we should adjust our approach the next time they come around, if ever.

Feel free to remind me of this post should you see me failing to heed my own suggestions.

Actual political discussions are but one aspect of the content of this forum, and we need more of everything, guns included. For active participants of this forum, and especially for those who truly love this little island of sanity, I urge you to take my comments to heart.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Hmmm... If there are in fact a large group of center lefts, why havent we heard more about them and from them?


Probably because the center left/right gets tired of being yelled at by the extreme and vocal ends of the political spectrum.


___________________________________________

"Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?"
-Dr. Thaddeus Venture
 
Posts: 6112 | Location: PDX | Registered: May 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Tenacious
Tempestuous
with Integrity
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ArtieS :
Thank you for posting this very important and thought provoking thread. I have read this thread several times,and would hope that ALL Sigforum members would take a few minutes and do the same.

Obviously our political and personal views are important to us. the 1st page of the Lounge has about half of the threads that are politically motivated or related.

If we would all just take a few deep breaths, step back for a few minutes before posting replies to a thread that we do not agree with, maybe that would let us reconsider our thoughts.

ArtieS: I am very interested in reading The Liberal Patriot. Have you been bombarded with unwanted bullshit since you subscribed to the publication?

Para:
Thanks for checking into this thread as the forum administrator.
I do not want to hijack the thread,but perhaps it is important enough to be considered for a Sticky so it remains visible on The Lounge 1st page.
 
Posts: 861 | Location: NW OHIO | Registered: December 31, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Age Quod Agis
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^^^^^ I don't really know if I've been subjected to too much BS after subscribing, because I opened a special gmail account for all of my subsciptions.

If I signup for something, I use that special account only, thus, it takes all the BS and I can safely ignore it, focusing only on that which I care about.

All that said, I have not noticed it to be a lot of crap.

If you are interested, you should also check out Substack.com for Glenn Greenwald, Matt Tiabbi, and Bari Weiss. All liberals, all exceptionally smart, all interested in a better civilization for ALL of us.

I was lead to this content by being a regular user of www.realclearpolitics.com, an aggregator site that has a decent balance between right, center and left.



"I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation."

Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II.
 
Posts: 13001 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: November 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The stoics have had a profound impact on my life and how I interact with others. Their teachings have also changed the way I look at life and the way I think about problems.

I came across the brilliance of Seneca, Epictetus, Zeno, and Marcus Aurelius during what I would characterize as a difficult time in my life.

Their thoughts on happiness, political discourse and what it is to live a good life is something everyone should read regardless of political orientation.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The price of liberty and even of common humanity is eternal vigilance
 
Posts: 21251 | Location: San Dimas CA, The Old Dominion or the Tar Heel State.  | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Domari Nolo
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quote:
Originally posted by 357fuzz:
Well maybe the center left liberals need to grow a backbone and confront the more radical extremists to the left of them. Their silence is just aiding and abetting the radical left.


You can replace "left" with "right", and replace "liberals" with "conservatives" in that sentence, and still have an accurate statement.



 
Posts: 2347 | Location: York, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
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quote:
By engaging with the sane liberal, the center left, we have an opportunity to support the movement of the country back to a rational center, and win on the margins as we have been doing in Florida, and other center right states.

Yes, and thank you.



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 24748 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
More light than heat
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I loves me some Stoics. I have on occasion been known to send a copy of the Enchiridion to friends of mine going through a hard time. It’s always well received.


_________________________

"Age does not bring wisdom. Often it merely changes simple stupidity into arrogant conceit. It's only advantage, so far as I have been able to see, is that it spans change. A young person sees the world as a still picture, immutable. An old person has had his nose rubbed in changes and more changes and still more changes so many times that that he knows it is a moving picture, forever changing. He may not like it--probably doesn't; I don't--but he knows it's so, and knowing is the first step in coping with it."

Robert Heinlein

 
Posts: 8891 | Location: West Chester, Ohio | Registered: April 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
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Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

We thought you wuz dead, Milliron. Good to see you, 'long as you ain't no zombay...

We've been maintainin' your cat thread in your absence.
 
Posts: 109623 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Ripley
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^^^^

A legacy to be proud for sure.

The perfect thread to reappear in, Milliron.




Set the controls for the heart of the Sun.
 
Posts: 8616 | Location: Flown-over country | Registered: December 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Coin Sniper
Picture of Rightwire
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I have always felt it's healthy to have opposing views. That is one of the basic premises that this country was founded on. Your most fundamental freedoms is the right to choose.

Opposing views should be listened to, considered, and compared with your own views. Only then can you make an informed decision.

I'm not very tolerant of people who demand I agree with their views without question. If I'm willing to question my own, I'm certainly questioning yours.

I have even less tolerance for anyone who screams at me or calls me names for not agreeing with them.




Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys

343 - Never Forget

Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat

There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive.
 
Posts: 38407 | Location: Above the snow line in Michigan | Registered: May 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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