I think we are heading to a situation where conventional war just becomes a matter of who can produce and innovate drones.

And, frankly, we are in real trouble. I’ve been talking with people working on “bringing back” manufacturing- and they’re pretty naive.

They don’t get that it’s not just the advanced stuff we can’t do, it’s that we can’t do things we could do in 2000s because we don’t have fabricators, tool and die men, industrial HVAC/refrigeration techs, men who can work on steam (might be able to get some from the military. I don’t know much about steam), ammonia refrigeration techs, and very few, actual, industrial electricians, industrial plumbers, etc.

The Managment has to know enough to spot a man lying about his expertise, or people will get killed - and they’re barely being taught anything about manufacturing, let alone the basics of “lock out tag out” etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
I think we are heading to a situation where conventional war just becomes a matter of who can produce and innovate drones.

And, frankly, we are in real trouble. I’ve been talking with people working on “bringing back” manufacturing- and they’re pretty naive.

They don’t get that it’s not just the advanced stuff we can’t do, it’s that we can’t do things we could do in 2000s because we don’t have fabricators, tool and die men, industrial HVAC/refrigeration techs, men who can work on steam (might be able to get some from the military. I don’t know much about steam), ammonia refrigeration techs, and very few, actual, industrial electricians, industrial plumbers, etc.

The Managment has to know enough to spot a man lying about his expertise, or people will get killed - and they’re barely being taught anything about manufacturing, let alone the basics of “lock out tag out” etc.

Do you have a link regarding the unrelated discussion you started in this thread as far as the solar panels? Again I ask as well to discuss your insistsace that thre will be a clean up cost for data centers they can't build fast enough. It's nonsense, now you are moving on manufacturing after making wild statements with nothing to back it up.

My biggest fear with AI is that it will allow for rapid and dangerous gain-of-function modifications to viruses.
Just think of something like Ebola that is engineered to be easily transmissible and infect only people with non-chinese genetics.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

…AI is here to stay, I'd put money on it killing us long before it goes away…

I think this perfectly illustrates the concerns that a lot of people have. There are a LOT of people that find the risks of some of the promised AI advancements to far outweigh the potential benefits. There are a lot of people that feel like there’s a line in the sand that should be drawn thereby preventing further advancement of AI beyond that point. Not unlike the widely held desire to prevent nuclear weapon proliferation and the desire to shrink nuclear weapon stockpiles, there’s people that see the AI situation as an opportunity to keep another “nuclear genie” in the bottle. There’s people that could actually justify military action against other countries to prevent AI from becoming a monster in much the same way that they’re willing to bomb the crap out of Iran to prevent them from acquiring a nuclear weapon. I’m not saying that anyone posting in this thread, myself included, has those exact views but I do think it’s wise to consider the potential risks of AI proliferation before it becomes problematic. I’m not saying we are absolutely headed towards sky net (although the marked anti human bias in AI is certainly troubling) but I think the concerns over destruction of arable farmland causing potential food supply issues down the road is a very reasonable and realistic concern.

I am fully serious when I say I fear AI killing us. To a lesser degree it's a complete step change in how we will operate. There's a number of ways AI could do it directly or lead us to devise pathogens or weapons that were otherwise far in the future. See WaterburyBob's reply above.

Count your blessings many here are retired. The whole damn apple cart is going to be completely upset. We will lose many, many jobs until we adjust to a new normal, there's early and mid career people that will need to retrain.

Fear the AI over the physical buildings.

To the bunkers men!

Da debil data centers and the aye-eyes are coming for us all!

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

I am fully serious when I say I fear AI killing us. To a lesser degree it's a complete step change in how we will operate. There's a number of ways AI could do it directly or lead us to devise pathogens or weapons that were otherwise far in the future. See WaterburyBob's reply above.

Count your blessings many here are retired. The whole damn apple cart is going to be completely upset. We will lose many, many jobs until we adjust to a new normal, there's early and mid career people that will need to retrain.

Fear the AI over the physical buildings.

Very fair points. These are most certainly concerns of mine as well. Perhaps it’s time that we start banding together to prevent AI proliferation? I’m not being flippant either. Many nations of the world have agreed not to produce and use biological or chemical weapons due to the inherent risks. Nuclear weapons have been tightly restricted and stockpiles reduced.There are lots of treaties governing what the people of the planet have deemed acceptable and unacceptable in terms of how wars may be waged. Is it really that far fetched to start having discussions about how AI can be limited?

As far as the opposition to data centers, as I’ve said previously I don’t know that I like the way things are going currently but there are paths forward that I would more happily support. But to address your last point, and again I’m not saying this is my position or anyone else’s on this forum, but wouldn’t starving the world of data centers potentially slow the progress of AI? Would “starving” the AI so to speak by slowing the proliferation of data acquisition by limiting the growth of data centers not be a way to potentially slow down AI advancements? And I realize that China is not likely to agree to do so, at least not at this time, but at least as a concept, couldn’t limiting the growth of data centers limit the growth and advancement of AI? I think these are things to consider, and I think it highlights the thinking that the problem is far more complex than merely a conflict between NIMBY groups, or conservative thinkers, or environmentalists, etc, etc. We are definitely living in interesting times.

quote:

And I realize that China is not likely to agree to do so

We had thousands of nukes before Russian agreed to rein it in with us, I think we are in another atomic/space race.

Skins, I posted links to sources for the clean up costs for solar?

I don’t know the clean up costs of an AI center - don’t think any have been dismantled yet, but there will be some.

Don’t think I made any claims about the clean up costs of AI centers.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
Perhaps it’s time that we start banding together to prevent AI proliferation?

Is anyone not involved in the leading edge development of AI capable of defining what and how to limit AI? And then, how do we police it?

A not insignificant portion of humans are all for pushing boundaries for the sake of seeing what can be done. I don't mean mountain climbing or designing race cars, but rather all those terrible things you mentioned like bigger nukes and scarier bio-weapons. Even what they think is basic science research can easily escape the lab. It has already happened several times with viruses, with terrible results.

AI weaponry could be developed in secret pretty easily by a malicious regime, and then deployed without warning.

I am not at all confident that many people around the globe would support the harshest penalties for a country or private project that violated restrictions. We see a large portion of US and western European populations don't think there is anything wrong with Iran getting nukes.

There's no easy answer.

Life 3.0 by Max Tegmark is a good book for anyone interested in the transformational power of AI. Interesting times indeed.

At least at one point, back in the mists of time, "important" infrastructure wasn't connected to the internet.

(As one old Cold War Relic Acquaintance put it, "if its on the network, its not secure.")

I think the only safe aspect is fire walling anything immediately susceptible - power grids, etc.

As far as putting AI in charge of weapons... Yeah... That will, pretty much, be the end of liberty... And, frankly, I think we're already there, except by political will. (The social tools to model connections/ID by face/gait have been around for 10+ years. Not sure how well they work, now.)

I know some groups kept complaining that "every time they tried to use AI, it ended up racist." - but that seems like a math problem/was years ago.)

quote:

I am fully serious when I say I fear AI killing us

Nothing to see here.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Skins, I posted links to sources for the clean up costs for solar?

I don’t know the clean up costs of an AI center - don’t think any have been dismantled yet, but there will be some.

Don’t think I made any claims about the clean up costs of AI centers.

Are you purposely being obtuse? You posted a hypothetical scenario that had far as I can tell had never happened. You are worried about something that has never happened ever as far as I can tell vs recommissioning of data centers which happens daily and is highly profitable. I can personally attest to the profitability of doing so. Just the same as the solar farms, they are already grid connected and producing power which if you haven't noticed is a highly sought commodity. It's like comparing apples and ice cream cones.

So I ask again, can you provide a single instance of a solar farm being abandoned due to hail? Just a single one, I'm not asking a lot here. I can provide you with a dozen recommissioned data centers, and examples of old factories with grid connections being turned into data centers.

They are like hermit crabs if there's a shell available with power, there's a line of buyers waiting to scoop it up. Even in my companies case when we found it's not worth recommissioning a tiny data center, some smaller company will happily buy it from us and redevelop it.

Please cites your sources or stop muddying up the thread with implausible situations. It's getting ridiculous at this point. You are wildly speculating about a highly impossible situation. Even if not used as a data center a grid connection for other uses such as chip manufacturing would happily take over the substation as power is currently at a premium.

I figured this would be a simple thing, quick Google search, ok, never happened, move on. Nope for some reason.

Grok agrees with you, Jesse.

quote:

No, there is no documented instance of a solar farm being abandoned specifically due to hail damage.

Major hail events have caused significant damage and large insurance claims (often tens of millions of dollars), but operators have consistently repaired, replaced panels, recycled damaged modules, and resumed operations rather than abandoning the sites. Solar farms are insured against such events, and the economics favor repair/repowering over abandonment.

Claims of abandonment tied to hail appear to stem from exaggerated media or social media narratives around specific storms, but they do not hold up under scrutiny. Solar infrastructure has proven resilient enough through insurance and maintenance to avoid outright abandonment from hail alone.

Even that sci-fi looking one in California desert that was waste of money because solar panels are more efficient is still operated because the cost of not using the power outweighs inefficiency while killing tons of birds.



Still cool looking though, I think it was used as bond villain-esque lair.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Even that sci-fi looking one in California desert that was waste of money because solar panels are more efficient is still operated because the cost of not using the power outweighs inefficiency while killing tons of birds.


Still cool looking though, I think it was used as bond villain-esque lair.

It is blinding to pilots flying towards the LA area. I would have to put something solid up to block it. It is a hazard to flight imho.

Trying to find sources the most friendly to solar:

https://www.solarinsure.com/th...nd-business-closures

Solar farms do go bankrupt. Every industry has parties which go bankrupt.

I believe I posted an article from an insurance group, I think, talking about the large events which can wreck a solar farm.

Sometimes, it’s the insurance company’s fault, sometimes it’s games being played, but large claims do not always get paid. Sometimes it’s more profitable to take the payment, and not rebuild.

I’ve never heard of anyone growing crops in land full of broken glass and plastic - I’m guessing that’s the majority of what makes up a shattered solar panel.

So it would have to be cleaned up.

I don’t get quite why you’re so upset by the idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
I am fully serious when I say I fear AI killing us. To a lesser degree it's a complete step change in how we will operate. There's a number of ways AI could do it directly or lead us to devise pathogens or weapons that were otherwise far in the future. See WaterburyBob's reply above.

Count your blessings many here are retired. The whole damn apple cart is going to be completely upset. We will lose many, many jobs until we adjust to a new normal, there's early and mid career people that will need to retrain.

Fear the AI over the physical buildings.

I can appreciate what you are saying about your particular physical building. But, still, not all data centers are created equal. I'm sure some are much more acceptable to the people who live near them than others.

But also, you say "fear the AI over the physical buildings". And I agree with you. But you can't really separate the two. The entire purpose or the new, larger and more powerful data centers are to enable AI in order to do two things:
1. surveillance and tracking of every move people make, either physically or digitally.
2. replace people, functionally in the economy.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Trying to find sources the most friendly to solar:

https://www.solarinsure.com/th...nd-business-closures

Solar farms do go bankrupt. Every industry has parties which go bankrupt.

I believe I posted an article from an insurance group, I think, talking about the large events which can wreck a solar farm.

Sometimes, it’s the insurance company’s fault, sometimes it’s games being played, but large claims do not always get paid. Sometimes it’s more profitable to take the payment, and not rebuild.

I’ve never heard of anyone growing crops in land full of broken glass and plastic - I’m guessing that’s the majority of what makes up a shattered solar panel.

So it would have to be cleaned up.

I don’t get quite why you’re so upset by the idea.

Once again, another fucking giant swing and miss. Just provide one grid scale solar field closed by hail or give up. For fucks sake man. Your fucking thesis is stupid.

Not a single one of these is utilities or grid scale.

Try again. Or better yet just give up on your hail = field of despair = pending data center abandonment thesis.

This is the exact type of shit that annoys me when discussing things like this.

WHAT THE FUCK DOES YOUR CRAZY IMAGINED POTENTIAL SOLAR CALAMITY HAVE TO DO WITH DATA CENTERS???????

Skins, calm down brother.

You like data centers and their purpose, impact, scale and volume don't matter to you. Okie doke.

Others, not so much or not at all. For what ever the reason. Deal with it.


time to find something else to dwell on. Geez.