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Member |
Thank you for your polite reply. As a lawyer, you realize that hyperbole does not improve communication. That's one of my New Years Resolutions. We will have to discuss free and fair in another thread soon. | |||
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| Author, cowboy, friend to all |
If they tried to tell the truth they would choke! | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
The biggest mistake is thinking that the problem is “we’re just not communicating”. When dealing with a class of people that have a goal of taking your freedom. After the last 20 years, if you think lack of civility is part of the problem, you are part of the problem. Lucky for you, you’ll get to slow clap your way right into subjectgation with your concerns of civility. That is their end goal. They’ll burn American cities. They’ll destroy small businesses. They will destroy the economy if they will get their way. They’ll frame people. Weaponize the justice system. They are in this to win. Civility is not going to change them. “Being the bigger man” has only continued to dig our hole deeper. Put their boot firmer on our necks. Their fear of Trump proved this. We aren’t supposed to stand up and fight. The time to win this with diplomacy has long passed. | |||
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Fourth line skater |
The post above is interesting. In a previous discussion involving election fraud I posed three things the Republicans could do to counter what many here believe to be a stolen election. 1. Learn to win beyond the margin of fraud. 2. Devise a system that eliminates fraud. 3. Learn to cheat better than you opponent. With so much at stake according to the post above where do we stand on number 3 now? Are we "in it to win?" If you believe the left is in it to win and they did cheat.... And, for the record I don't advise civility for the sake of dealing with the left. I advise it for the sake of winning new voters who are sick to death of the shit both sides are slinging right now. Here's an update super chief we just lost and election by 6 million votes. Our playbook is 40 years old and needs updating. This is one area today's conservatives need to fight their instinct. The theory is sound but the message and approach needs updating and change. _________________________ OH, Bonnie McMurray! | |||
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| Fourth line skater |
You left out Ben Sasse. I'll forgive you this time.  _________________________ OH, Bonnie McMurray! | |||
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| Fourth line skater |
First - awesome to get a Letterkenny AND a Ferris Bueller reference in the same post. [/QUOTE] Oh God someone's on to me. _________________________ OH, Bonnie McMurray! | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
New voters? Where do these mythical “new voters” come from? If over the last 20 years, you haven’t seen a substantial uptick in “new voters”, you’re not going to. And who says that “new voters” are looking for Mr Rogers in a politician. When they look for a cancer doctor, they don’t look for “nice”. When they need an attorney, they don’t look for “nice”. Same with an accountant. Why do we have this myth that nice and civility will gee golly win us “new voters”? And what does it matter if there are all of these mythical new voters, if their votes will just be thrown away, switched, or marginalized? We had better get more aggressive, and not less. And quick. Or in less than a generation, history will repeat itself. | |||
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| Fourth line skater |
In 2016 230,931,921 voted. 2020 239,247,182 people voted. Those are the NEW voters on the table now. What motivated them to vote in this cycle? What do you suggest we do to get these NEW voters in the future? Same old shit? _________________________ OH, Bonnie McMurray! | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
Votes not voters! We will never know the true numbers. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Fourth line skater |
Okay. The system is completely corrupt and broke. The other side is cheating by the tune of millions of votes. So where do you stand on number 3 now? When you look and the history of modern politics the Republicans warning the Democrats not to ax the filibuster on judge appointments. They did it anyway, and today it bit them on the ass. What one side does the other has to do to compete and survive. It's not nice. It's not clean. Its messy but it has to be done. _________________________ OH, Bonnie McMurray! | |||
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Fonky Honky |
_________________________________________ Dei. Familia. Patria. Victoria. Don't back up, don't back down. | |||
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Member |
Respectfully, the new voters are eligible voters that normally just do not vote. That is, in 2020 66.3% of the eligible voters voted. In 2016 it was 60.1%, and in 2008 it was 61.6%. So, yeah, more people turn out, and if they do not agree with your candidate or party, you will not win. That is how this works. Not agreeing will not change that. Is the opinion of the majority wrong ? Maybe, but that will hopefully self correct in time. You say we do not need "nice", and your examples do resonate, but remember, doc's, attorneys, and accountants will do a job that is linear, and normally never a "group" effort, so a brilliant douchebag is just fine in these cases. Government, the way America is designed , is collaborative , so yes, social skills matter. Otherwise, as we see, nothing gets done. I have waited for the evidence of vote tampering to come out, and unfortunately, the idea that there is a multi-state, multi-level conspiracy of election officials, judges, and elected representatives of both parties all able to maintain a fraud, with no credible evidence that will hold up in any court being leaked by this massive cohort being more plausible than more people just voted for Biden ( right or wrong) just does not add up. Conservatives need to be able to reach more people with a message that they can believe in, other wise what we seem to want is to have a smaller (not by much, at this point) group imposing its will on the larger group, and that is not America. "Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are stupider than that' George Carlin | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
As long as you continue to confuse votes with voters, and you believe there is no “credible” evidence of voter fraud, your numbers are meaningless. You don’t seem to Accept the fact that the election was stolen. You’ve been had. You can’t actually present evidence that it was actual voters, and the “no credible evidence of voter fraud” isn’t proof. It’s legal gymnastics that people are trying to use as proof. | |||
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| No double standards |
I can't remember where I heard this. An older fellow commented "I just found out both my parents voted for Biden. I will never visit their gravesite again." The GA runoff election is today, I have no prediction on the result other than I am confident there will be notable voter fraud. The media will distort the whole matter. I think we may have turned the corner where deep state/dark money will now control the gov't. And on the whole, the people either won't see it, or won't care about it. "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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Member |
They cheat because it is profitable in terms of both power and money. Cheating will not stop until cheaters are held to account - to the maximum extent provided by laws of the United States of America. ____________________________ "It is easier to fool someone than to convince them they have been fooled." Unknown observer of human behavior. | |||
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| Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jljones: As long as you continue to confuse votes with voters, and you believe there is no “credible” evidence of voter fraud, your numbers are meaningless. You don’t seem to Accept the fact that the election was stolen. You’ve been had. You can’t actually present evidence that it was actual voters, and the “no credible evidence of voter fraud” isn’t proof. It’s legal gymnastics that people are trying to use as proof.[/QUOTE I see what you are driving at. And yes, based on training and personal inclination, I am likely to believe the data presented to me by the sources that have always been held as the standards - that is the state election officials that are career civil servants of both parties that state the election followed accepted protocols and was run in a fair manner. Multiple examinations have not revealed significant malfeasance that would effect the outcome. There is a logical fallacy where someone may state that because I can not prove you are wrong, then your claim is valid. For example, I state that there is currently a dog that is 200 years old, living happily in the USA. If you are not able to disprove that, then I am right. Obviously, this is not a valid argument. This is where we are going with this situation. As an officer of the law, I know you apply the concept of the burden of proof every day. The burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion. In this case, I assert that the election was fairly run, and offer the above accepted bipartisan election protocols as proof. You are asserting that the election was stolen, and the votes are fraudulent. I ask that the proof of this be something that would be generally accepted in a court of law, as this is the basis of our society. I have not yet seen this, I admit. if it exists, please let me know. At this time, if we assert that the election was unfairly run, it would incumbent on us to make changes we all could accept as being fair to all voters, and implement those. "Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are stupider than that' George Carlin | |||
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| Member |
I don't believe we as a nation, or even on a state by state level, have the desire or even the ability or resources to do a comprehensive audit of every vote that was cast in this or any other election. What we have seen so far is really only state election officials certifying that the votes they collected and counted followed whatever protocols were in place at the moment. And in many cases, these protocols had been recently and significantly changed for this election only. Things like signature verification processes, absentee ballot request policies, and voting deadlines, etc. Here's an example of how I think voter fraud can and has been done. Groups of Democrat operatives canvass the city and "assist" people in registering to vote and request absentee ballots for them. They then collect those legal ballots and ensure that the right candidate(s) are voted for on those ballots, and deliver them to the election precinct. So "Aunt Mary" is a legal voter and cast a ballot that was counted, but we'll never really know if Aunt Mary's absentee ballot was actually filled out by Aunt Mary, or if it was "harvested" in an organized operation in a larger Democrat controlled city (like Milwaukee) and counted as part of a massive midnight ballot dump on the night of the election. What would an audit prove? Aunt Mary is alive, she's registered and she voted, but a standard election audit wouldn't reveal her vote was illegally cast unless she was tracked down in person, interviewed, and even understood what happened. If there is election fraud, and I believe there is and has been for years, this IMO is how it happens at a scale that is both able to be pulled off and significant enough to influence the outcome of an election that hinges on 10-20K votes statewide. Can I prove it happens? No. But I know it can be done and it is worth doing if you are trying to steal an election, therefore I believe it has happened. This is just one example of a scheme that can swing an election. I'm sure there are plenty more. | |||
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| Member |
Yes sir, Bigwagon, I agree that the possibility exists, and the process has vulnerabilities. And we need to fix that, institutionally. But while we can say we are concerned and believe it has happened, we can not state that it is fact without some reasonable level of objective proof. Maybe it happened, but you need to accept that maybe it did not. Anything else is intellectually dishonest. And so we need to continue on as though this is valid, until you can prove otherwise, lest you risk invalidating someones constitutionally guaranteed right to vote. And absolutely we need to press officials hard to make a system that is easier to validate and harder to game, but going retroactive without proof is not reasonable. "Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are stupider than that' George Carlin | |||
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| Member |
It's pretty simple. Once you have conviced yourself that abortion is morally acceptable, cheating is a cakewalk. | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
I am dumber for having read this. And this is why democrats cheat. | |||
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