quote:

Originally posted by jljones: You have posters that are claiming that this dampens their support of their local cops. Really? Something that happened several states away dampens your support? Have to tell you, if thats the case, there wasn't much support to begin with.

jljones,

I believe that it was my comment in which I used the word "trust" (not "support") that rubbed you wrong.

Probably a poor choice of words on my part. I think we are all guilty of jumping to conclusions on cases that are really tragic in either direction. Take the other thread about the officer killed when he responded to the accident. Most of us immediately thought that was a horrible tragedy that the Lt lost his life trying to do the right thing. I haven't gone back to the thread recently to check, but don't recall anyone saying: "Well, we don't know what the cop might have done to provoke him. We need to wait for the facts." No, most of us were about 99% sure that it was a scum bag that killed a cop.

In this case there may be shared responsibility that elicited the shots being fired, but I still think the homeowner was in the primary role of unwilling participant in the incident.

I'm not among those that think every guy from bottom to top should be charged with murder. There are mistakes made in every field of endeavor. Medical malpractice is almost never turned into a criminal prosecution, but often results in a combination of compensation to the victim and professional censure of the doctor. Those negative consequences are what prompts hospitals and their staff to ask you a dozen times "What are you here for today?" before wheeling you into the OR. Without admitting that a mistake was made, better practices never develop.

Perhaps the same thing happens within police departments. If that's the case, I apologize for making the assumption that these incidents get justified and covered up. It probably doesn't work that way.

I believe that a free press is a core principle of our Republic. Sometimes I wonder if we are doing that "free press" thing right. The media rushes to publish something with the barest minimum of information, often screws that up hopelessly, and ladles on a big helping of conjecture and spin which serves the agenda of the writer and/or publisher.

The reality is that we don't have near enough information to pass judgement and yet we try. If all the information ever comes out, I'll bet that the reality is that there are things that the cops could have done better and things that the homeowner could have done better, either of which (or both) could have avoided this whole situation.

It seems to me that while we wait for more information to understand what really happened the most productive thing is to consider what we could do to avoid a similar issue. Sure, with 20:20 hindsight, unlimited funds, and a touch of paranoia, floodlights and a camera system with a monitor in a bunker (safe room) far from the door, as well as an intercom system allowing two way communication seems like a swell idea.

"What the heck are you doing on my property at 1234 Anydrive in Somecity, Thatstate?" "Oh, you want 1235 Anydrive? That is across the street, the trailer with the big P over the door. Go bug him and leave me alone. Have a safe night." Too bad foresight is rarely as good as hindsight.

quote:

Originally posted by goingbroke:
This will continue to happen until each and every officer involved in each part of the case from the beginning up until the part where you fill out the most important (address and shit for the judge to sign off justifying your creds) and then you triple check the address and shit again before you bust in on the wrong house !

You can't rewind a fuckup!

Since this wasn't a search warrant, that has zero to do with this case... Any other off topic complaints? Like how your food was served cold last night at the restaurant? Or something else that has nothing to do with THIS case?

As has already been explained several times, this was NOT a search warrant where you need to verify an address, and make sure its correct.

It was an arrest warrant. And you can bet your ass any good cop will check with the neighbors (i.e. be at the "wrong house"" while looking for a wanted suspect.

It appears that you can lead a dog to water.... but then it drinks fucking sand and dies.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:

It was an arrest warrant. And you can bet your ass any good cop will check with the neighbors (i.e. be at the "wrong house"" while looking for a wanted suspect.

It appears that you can lead a dog to water.... but then it drinks fucking sand and dies.

Sure is an awful lot of assumptions and speculations going on from those condemning others for making assumptions and speculations.

What you said is pure conjecture about what happened in an effort to rationalize your point of view. What's that about drinking sand?

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

No. But it's quite obvious that if I'm ever greeted by someone with a gun pointed at me at one of those calls, you guys would rather read my obituary.

Great point which raises a question. Take this story for example. We have an innocent homeowner, and a guy trying to do his job.

Who's life is more important? The innocent homeowner, or the police officer? Would we rather read the homeowner's obituary, or the officer's obituary?

We know that in reality the answer would be neither, but in this case we have to choose.

I choose police officer. They got the manpower, resources, weapons, armor and tactics. They're also choosing the when and the where. If shots are fired, the police are more likely to land theirs and if anyone is going to get shot the police officer has a far better chance of surviving.

That said, situations like this are awful for everyone involved and hopefully better methods that are safe and effective will reduce the likelihood of these things happening.

I've served lot of warrants in my career. Felony, no knock, day time, night time.

But never at the wrong house.

This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened and unfortunately will probably not be the last. With the many hundreds of thousands of arrest warrants served every year, mistakes occur, sometimes with tragic results. Such errors can be tracked back to poor procedures and tactics, but in general are the fault of poor supervision and leadership.

If the events occurred as presented in the article, a cascading series of events starting with an incorrect address, misperception of facts and probably mistaken identities on both sides of that door, an aggressive dog, poor lighting, the resident producing a gun, and other unknowns all conspired to bring about the result. There is not enough information to understand how the officers and the person who was shot ended up at that critical juncture.

Irrespective of having the wrong house, there is not enough information here to make a call as to whether the officers were justified in firing. Whether the shooting was justified will be determined on the threat perceived by the officers, and what they believed at the time. A heightened sense of fear among officers must contribute as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Dead_Eye:

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

No. But it's quite obvious that if I'm ever greeted by someone with a gun pointed at me at one of those calls, you guys would rather read my obituary.

Great point which raises a question. Take this story for example. We have an innocent homeowner, and a guy trying to do his job.

Who's life is more important? The innocent homeowner, or the police officer? Would we rather read the homeowner's obituary, or the officer's obituary?

We know that in reality the answer would be neither, but in this case we have to choose.

I choose police officer. They got the manpower, resources, weapons, armor and tactics. They're also choosing the when and the where. If shots are fired, the police are more likely to land theirs and if anyone is going to get shot the police officer has a far better chance of surviving.

That said, situations like this are awful for everyone involved and hopefully better methods that are safe and effective will reduce the likelihood of these things happening.

Statistically, all your points are the opposite. People who kill officers report to practice more often than officers do, they are able to get the first shot off using the element of surprise, thus have a much better hit rate than officers. The bad guys who attack officers always choose the when and where. Officers who are killed from an attack overwhelmingly are not able to get a shot off.

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:...
You missed that some people are very consistent in their double standards....This thread is FULL of double standards.

Mr Jones.

You make good sense here. Thank you.

And I make a conscious effort to not have any double standards myself (admittedly, I am not always successful which is an indication I still need to make changes).

Cool. You can't argue with that frame of mind in the least.

There is nothing wrong with answering the door with a gun in hand, or holstered, or at the low ready, or otherwise not literally pointed at anyone.

Actually pointing it at someone, police or not, unwarranted, is a different thing altogether.

I support the former but not the latter.

However, I suspect you'd get shot by mistaken police for either scenario, and in my mind only the latter - actually pointing it at them - is wrong in any way whatsoever.

If you can't answer your own door with a weapon you're not free at all.

I still haven't heard what time this shooting occurred. Was it dark outside is what I want to know.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
I still haven't heard what time this shooting occurred. Was it dark outside is what I want to know.

I have not seen the time, but I believe it was late in the evening, definitely dark. I believe that increases the officers' responsibility to be more careful, and decreases the victim's expectation of good intentions.


Edit: 11:30pm.

quote:

Edit: 11:30pm

How many people here wouldn't be armed when the hear people in yard or at their door at 11:30?

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
I still haven't heard what time this shooting occurred. Was it dark outside is what I want to know.

I have not seen the time, but I believe it was late in the evening, definitely dark. I believe that increases the officers' responsibility to be more careful, and decreases the victim's expectation of good intentions.


Edit: 11:30pm.

Thank you. That gives me a better perspective.

I don't doubt for a second that I would have been armed in a similar situation. I wonder how much lighting there was in that front yard.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Edit: 11:30pm

How many people here wouldn't be armed when the hear people in yard or at their door at 11:30?

I don't think anybody in the whole thread has expressed a problem with him being armed. Day or night.

11:30 at night the cops had to think they were at the right house. Because if they are serving an arrest warrant, they surely weren't asking neighbors if they knew where the bad guy was. If they were then, that was a dumb decision.

I can hear the conversation now.

Sgt. to Ofc.: Hey Ofc. So and So, go bang on that neighbors door and wake his ass up. Ask him if he knows if his dirt bag neighbor is home?

Ofc. to Sgt: But it is 11:30pm and there are no lights on?

Sgt: Thats why you bang on the door extra hard. And make sure you shine your flashlight in the eyes of whomever answers, so they can't see who you are but you can get a good look at them.

Sgt: And take a few others with you. That should let him them know you are legit. And remember bang hard and flashlights!

The police involved own this situation and its outcome whole heartedly. Taking ten minutes to verify and even re-verify that they are at the correct address is not going to change anything. They are there and if the suspect tries to leave in that ten minute window, then most likely they would see them and take immediate action.

I have some experience with serving arrest warrants in my younger days. You plan, you talk to everyone who is taking part. You know your address, you know your target. You have to do it smart, because your target is not. If they did, they most likely would not be on the receiving end of our visit.

Edit to add: I am no longer in law enforcement, and have not been in a long time. I was lucky to be involved with a very professional department that believed in training and planning.

I've had police radios/scanners since I was about 8 years old, and I've heard many screwups over the years. One time, the police were talking about a house at "1234 W. Maple St"(Not the real address), that had cars coming in and out all times of the day and night. Expensive cars mostly. They decided it was a drug house, due to a "confidential informant", and they get a warrant, but it's for "1234 E. Maple St". There's a lot of cars going in and out, all times of the day and night, a lot of them expensive. They sat and watched the house, the WRONG house for over 24 hours, and nobody seemed to catch the mistake. Nobody looked up the house's owners, nothing. They finally decided to raid the house when a large number of people began showing up for an unknown reason. On video, the Lt in charge says, "They must be giving it away", ignoring the food and packages being carried into the house, and again, not looking up license plates. If they had, they would have noticed a lot of the car owners had the same last names as the owners of the house, as children and grandkids usually do. So in the middle of the owner's 60th anniversary party, and the wife's 84th birthday, the police bust in. The old lady spends her birthday in the hospital, as does her husband, the police look like idiots, and it was all on video. One young cop says about 5 minutes before they go in, "I think this is the wrong house!", he's told to "Keep quiet!" over the radio by the LT. They tore the crap out of the house, roughed up several people and generally scared the crap out of everyone. One of the children, who has the same name as his dad, was a well known ex-prosecutor, and attorney. He ended up suing the department for a lot of money. The police did $20,000+ damage to the house and contents tearing the place up along with trashing a stained glass window that had been in the house for over 100 years. Why were all the people going in and out of the house at all hours? Because they were taking turns taking care of their parents and grandparents, so they could stay in their house until the end. There were 10 children, so it wasn't all that hard to do it 24/7. The old man died before the county paid up, and mom was close to the end. The county claimed they would "improve warrant info and address checking in the future", but about a year and a half later, did the same thing, raided the wrong house due to swapping numbers in the address and not checking it first. They got paid off too, and the second raid did finally seem to stop the screw ups, at least the big ones.

Below is the number of people ya'll convinced to change thier opinion in this thread.

One morning, early in the summer, in Phoenix, a frantic little old lady called the P.D. because
mexicans were tearing down her house.

turns out that the mexicans were re roofing a house, but they were a block south of where they were supposed to be.

The LEO's actually waited for the company owner to get there to get the mess straightened out .

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by slabsides45:
I didn't read, even in the police account, that they identified themselves as police officers, but rather shouted "put the gun down!"

So is that the new standard? Follow any "lawful" command, on your property, at any time, without proper identification? I know, I know, the facts will come out....

What if it had been the UPS guy? A Morman? The water meter guy?

You can't just point a gun at people because they are on your stoop. They can shoot back, you know. Cop or not.

And as perfect as everyone is, sometimes yelling shit like "Quit Resisting!" or "Police!" goes out the window when you're looking down the barrel of a gun and your lizard brain has taken over. Police...and everyone else...are not required to give a warning before using deadly force when they are looking down a barrel.

I doubt the UPS person is knocking at 11:30PM.