quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:

And Mazda is Ford.

Ford's ownership of any part of Mazda ended in 2015. And, when it sold that last holding, it was just 2% of Mazda's stock. Ford and Mazda haven't been meaningfully linked for many years.

quote:

Originally posted by Veeper:
I never see an honest discussion on why vehicle pricing goes up year after year, when the trend for manufacturing and electronics is usually market forces driving down cost/price.

Because cars by both government mandates and market forces continually get more complicated every year. Government continually mandates additional safety devices, anti-lock brakes, traction control, rearview cameras, etc. Government also mandates emissions and corporate average fuel economy standards which drive more complex and expensive technology. Market forces keep coming up with features like satellite navigation, cell phone connectivity, self driving, etc.

It's impossible to build a simple car anymore. My current truck for example, a 2015 Ford F-150. Would anybody have though that 10 years ago a truck would have twin turbos, dual overhead cams, variable valve timing, etc.? No one is going to make anything as mechanically simple as a 64 Ford Falcon or VW Bug. Regulations would not allow it and the market wouldn't buy it.

I agree that a manufacturer has to follow the market. My own personal philosophy is that there are 2 factors that led to Ford's declining sales in passenger cars, lack of innovation and lack of identity.

Lack of innovation has really hurt Ford's passenger car sales. Case in point, the Taurus. It wasn't exactly groundbreaking when it came out and its been dying on the vine for years with no major updates or redesign. The Fusion is not much better. It was at the top of the class when it was introduced but has not had any major refinements or redesign for several years. Look at their hybrids. They brought out the Fusion and the C-Max hybrids and then did nothing to further refine them. During the same time as much as I hate the things, Toyota has continued to refine and evolve the Prius. When Ford got into the hybrid game they were competitive with Toyota, they've been left behind.

Then there's the lack of identity. The only "car" Ford will continue making is the Mustang. It's their only car that has an identity, it's their only car when you look at it yo know instantly what it is. Everyone makes a generic shaped rounded off jelly bean of a 4 door sedan. So much so that it's hard to tell the differences between them. At a glance a Ford Fusion looks like a Hyundai Sonata.

So if they want to be successful, innovate, build cars that have an identity. Lengthen the Mustang platform to put a 4 door sedan body on it and have what the BMW 3 series used to be for a fraction of the cost. Call it the Falcon, make it look badass and sell a ton of them. The next gen Exploder is supposedly going back to rear wheel drive platform. Use some of the same components for a full sized sedan. Call it the Galaxy 5.0, make it look badass and sell a ton of them. The Dodge Charger has been about the only successful sedan for FCA as of late. Why? Because it has an identity, looks like nothing else and does offer performance.

Yes the market has changed, but Ford's lack of innovation and identity has added to their sales decline and loss of market share.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:


It's the height of folly to produce a product nobody wants.

That's news to Honda and Mazda as they are selling Civics/Accords and Mazda 3's/6's as fast as they can make them.

Honda and Mazda are selling them like hotcakes, but Ford ISN'T. . .

People do not want Ford cars; hence Ford won't make them.

quote:

The Brutal Reality of Why Ford Is Cutting Cars

Simply a business decision > they want to make what will sell and are profitable.
It may or may not work out.

Henry Ford if he were still alive and had his way would still be making model T's.
It took his son to force him into the Model A and the rest is history.

Cars are going to take different shapes and pretty soon we'll have a car that folds into a briefcase.
Time will tell.

When my new 3 ton Yukon with the 6.2L cranks out an average of 19.6mpg, it would take a HUGE increase in gas prices for me to give it up. That kind of mileage was unheard of in full size vehicle a few decades ago.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Simply a business decision > they want to make what will sell and are profitable.
It may or may not work out.

I agree. American car companies do not know how to make an econo box car that makes money (or people want to buy). Margins on them are small compared to a SUV or pickup which they are very good at. Time will tell if Ford made correct decision.

Domestic small cars and sedans are not selling well nor making money. That doesn't mean that style of car is going away, it just means domestic automakers are willing to lose market share in order to generate higher returns.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

It has nothing to do with Japan vs Domestic.

I notice that you didn't answer my question. So exactly when will Toyota be discontinuing the Camry due to unsustainably low sales?

If it's just a drastic decline in ALL sedan sales as you claim, and it has NOTHING to do with the Toyota Camry killing Ford in the sedan market every year for the last 20 years, then we should also see Toyota discontinue the Camry within the next year, right?

Remember when Ford quite making their vans?

Now they are making vans again??

You get an idiot running the company and he makes a horrible decision for the future, but saves the company a bunch of money over a 2 year span and he collects a bonus the size of what would be more than any ten of us makes in a lifetime.

Then a few years later, that turns out to be a dumb move and they start over. Let me just say Jaguar.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett B:

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

It has nothing to do with Japan vs Domestic.

I notice that you didn't answer my question. So exactly when will Toyota be discontinuing the Camry due to unsustainably low sales?

If it's just a drastic decline in ALL sedan sales as you claim, and it has NOTHING to do with the Toyota Camry killing Ford in the sedan market every year for the last 20 years, then we should also see Toyota discontinue the Camry within the next year, right?

Camry 2017 sales: 387,000
Fusion 2017 sales: 209,000
Accord 2017 sales: 322,600

Manufacturers make what people buy!

Sig Forum members look in your garage how many of you have Suv's and trucks instead of cars.

Just be honest - Japanese / Korean car owned manufacturers have smoked checked American cars manufacturers for decades and it hasn't stopped.

Ford just admitted defeat, since nobody likes their cars. If they weren't propped up by LEO sales, this likely would have happened much sooner.

We are 75% Hondas and 25% old ass GM. Only 1 is a car (for my son) and when I looked, I didn't even consider a Ford anything. My target cars were either a Honda Civic or Honda Accord.

Sayonara

quote:

Originally posted by Aquabird:
Remember when Ford quite making their vans?

Now they are making vans again??

You get an idiot running the company and he makes a horrible decision for the future, but saves the company a bunch of money over a 2 year span and he collects a bonus the size of what would be more than any ten of us makes in a lifetime.

Then a few years later, that turns out to be a dumb move and they start over. Let me just say Jaguar.

Ford never planned to drop vans. What they did was decide to stop building two different models. Econoline was largely a North American vehicle, and Transit was the van for the rest of the world. Given the market for vans has diminished (but still viable), it made sense to produce one vehicle for all markets.

I contend that Ford could simply have stopped producing their sedans, without making any sort of announcement, any NOBODY would have noticed.

Mazda's car sales are suffering, but they can't keep CX-5's or CX-9's on the lot. I suspect it's the same for all manufacturers.

The entire point of that article is that the industry needs to cast-aside nostalgia and build what people are buying. The sales figures don't lie. Come to grips with reality and let it go. People went ape-shit when Ford used aluminum for the F-150, and had the audacity to phase out the 5.0 V8 for the 3.5 turbo V6, it's still the best-selling truck in the US.

I love manual transmissions. If I don't buy a new car within the next 2-3 years, I am fairly certain I will NEVER be able to buy one with a manual ever again, unless it's used. I have come to grips with this.

Cars, as we used to know them, are dying. It will take Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai a few years longer, but they will follow-suit eventually. Nostalgia has no place here folks.

quote:

Originally posted by dusty3030:
Accords, Civics, Camrys and Sonatas ate their lunch.

Not really. Toyota had to heavily incentivize the current Camry to move it. The newest Accord isn’t moving either and Honda will have to give in and incentivize it also if they want to sell them.

Crossovers are ruling the roost. And electrification is coming to all the things.

Reading this thread, you guys aren't going to believe this, but the most reliable car I've ever owned was a 1970's GM sedan. My grandparents bought a 1979 Olds 98 Regency brand new and it gave my family 165,000 trouble free miles. Only maintenance and gas. Maintenance would be oil, filters, brake pads, tires, belts, etc. Rotors and drums never warped, I'm looking at you HONDA and DODGE!, I even turned them twice in auto shop class in high school. 1986 CRX, 1992 Prelude SI, 2001 Dakota, and 2012 Odyssey all warped front rotors.

Funny thing is out of 12 cars I've owned, the Olds was the only sedan. Up until a few months ago, I hadn't even considered one. Two pickups, two coupes, three hatchbacks, one jeep (it's a 1945 Ford GPW hence jeep is not capitalized), one full-sized SUV, one mini-van, and one two-seat convertible. Sedans just don't fit any real or perceived need I have. All the other vehicles I've chosen offered more practicality or utility than any sedan.

The fact is sedan sales are declining. Honda and Toyota are positioned to still make money producing them, while Ford is not. If the market continues to decline for sedans, other companies will quit making them as well.

I really wish I would have bought a Chevrolet SS with a 6-speed manual when I had the chance.

... a little different here in Australia.

None of the manufacturers have a plant here.
Even Holden - Australian GMH division - have shuttered the doors.

It's all about the imports now. And the customs duty and taxes imposed. Which were initially implemented to protect the local auto making industry.

Petrol (gas) here is AUD$1.30 - AUD$1.50 a litre.

As a result diesels, turbo diesels and petrol turbos are popular choices here, for the performance orientated fuel economy.

With a small population of 24.13 million (2016), the market share is fairly crowded, with some make/models are just simply overpriced for what they are.

There's rumor and innuendo here, that the auto market is due for revamp of the selections.

It's a sad reflection here; the unions were the bane yet the creator of the middle class.