If I ever buy another car it’ll likely be a Camry/Accord/Sonata. Domestic sedans aren’t even on the radar. Last one I bought for myself was a barebones 1999 Saturn. I loved that car and never had a moment of trouble with it, just needed to get a truck when we moved out here to the farm.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:


It's the height of folly to produce a product nobody wants.

That's news to Honda and Mazda as they are selling Civics/Accords and Mazda 3's/6's as fast as they can make them.

All I owned were Fords till my Explorer finally died on me after 305,000 miles.

When I went shopping for a car I could not believe how much Fords were. Even my dad said they were pricing themselves out of the market and that was 4 years ago.

I have a Chevy Cruz now and I am okay with it. Just a couple of hiccups. I have always owned trucks or SUV's but since I travel a lot for work and too see my family it is more economical to have a car.

I saw this morning that gas around Durham is 2.69 to 2.75. It went up from yesterday.

My father has an F-150 and loves it dearly and that was the vehicle I always wanted. I guess that is shot in the butt.

quote:

Originally posted by dusty3030:
Accords, Civics, Camrys and Sonatas ate their lunch.

Huh, I guess that explains why Honda Idled production of the Accord this year due to slow sales and oversupply of vehicles they can't move, its that eating the US's lunch.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/1...ys-due-to-slow-sales

Reality is people don't want cars as a whole, sure some folks still want sedans, but for the industry, sedans are out of vogue now.

People didn’t give up their SUV’s when gas prices were high. At the very most when their lease was up they rented the next smaller SUV if anything at all.

Unfortunately they are here to stay because once people get used to that high seating position it’s very difficult to get them back into a car.

With aging baby boomers and no shortage of fat asses the SUV being easier to get into and out of is here forever.

The domestics killed themselves on cars when they changed all their products to follow and copy the foreign makes. Switching to all front wheel drive and trying to keep up with the Accord and Camry is a losing proposition. You have to build it better and they haven’t. Why not provide something unique and carve out your own market and build something fun to drive. Look at the Charger and Challenger as examples. I’d like to see them build cars people want that aren’t lesser versions of the foreign competition.

I’m odd man out, I guess. I think Ford will be fine.

I listened to an in-depth analysis of fuel prices for the coming summer. Out here, gas is not expected to go above $3. Remember, some increase in price is a normal occurrence as summer approaches. The analyst said that OPEC cut production in response to very low oil prices; however, $70 is about the threshold that the ME can receive without a negative (to them) response from the United States.

Right now, today, you can go down to your Ford/Lincoln dealer and purchase a Lincoln Navigator that is powered by a 213 cubic inch engine that will propel all 6330# of it from 0-60 in 5.5 seconds! It will also get an estimated 18 mpg in mixed driving.

I don’t like to see the cars go, but Ford seems to have made better business decisions, and arguably better R&D decisions than their competitors.

Ford will be fine, and they won't suffer from this decision. Look at any stretch of road you're driving at any given time, and you will see more SUV's, regardless of whatever importers are selling.

My SUV interceptor is the envy of every guy shoehorned into the sedan, and it is just as fast, and handles almost as well. I own an 02 Grand Cherokee with only 96K actual miles and will drive it to oblivion.

As of right now, people seem to want a SUV first, small car second, and sedan last IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Originally posted by dusty3030:
Accords, Civics, Camrys and Sonatas ate their lunch.

Huh, I guess that explains why Honda Idled production of the Accord this year due to slow sales and oversupply of vehicles they can't move, its that eating the US's lunch.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/1...ys-due-to-slow-sales

Reality is people don't want cars as a whole, sure some folks still want sedans, but for the industry, sedans are out of vogue now.

The Accord and Camry aren't the same. Honda's newest Accord is doing terrible in sales, but the Camry is in fact still eating the lunch of the US manufacturers.

2018 YTD sales for the Camry are outpacing 2017 sales. People are still buying lots of sedans, they just aren't buying American sedans.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car...toyota/toyota-camry/

quote:

People are still buying lots of sedans, they just aren't buying American sedans.

The Camry just went a major redesign for 2018 and has aggressive sales money behind it, yes it's up for 18, however that's also because Camry sales have been dropping for the past 3 years.

Also when looking at 2018 sales, compared to 2017 it's misleading, yes 18 is up over 17, however it's still significantly down from the high years of Camry sales back in 14, sales per moth of Camry's in 18 are well below 14 sales, and monthly sales figures have been dropping ever since, the fact is the segment is getting smaller overall.



Link

quote:

Originally posted by Brett B:

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Originally posted by dusty3030:
Accords, Civics, Camrys and Sonatas ate their lunch.

Huh, I guess that explains why Honda Idled production of the Accord this year due to slow sales and oversupply of vehicles they can't move, its that eating the US's lunch.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/1...ys-due-to-slow-sales

Reality is people don't want cars as a whole, sure some folks still want sedans, but for the industry, sedans are out of vogue now.

The Accord and Camry aren't the same. Honda's newest Accord is doing terrible in sales, but the Camry is in fact still eating the lunch of the US manufacturers.

2018 YTD sales for the Camry are outpacing 2017 sales. People are still buying lots of sedans, they just aren't buying American sedans.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car...toyota/toyota-camry/

Look at the sales in your own link compared to 2014... Down

All car sales are down, all of them, Honda, Nissan, GM, Ford, Toyota, etc etc.

And Mazda is Ford.

Car sales are in the toilet across the board in the US. If you are an auto manufacturer do you make what the tree huggers and hippies want or do you make what you make money on?

quote:

Look at the sales in your own link compared to 2014... Down

All car sales are down, all of them, Honda, Nissan, GM, Ford, Toyota, etc etc.

My point exactly, the "Japan vs US Domestic" input always comes up, it's not true anymore nor is it the reason for Fords departure from the small sedan market.

The simple fact is the overall sedan market is shrinking.

At one time the Model T was the worlds largest selling car, but as times, design, technology and peoples needs changed, even Henry Ford had to begrudgingly change and ended the T then produced the Model A.

Its just a sign of the times.

It's entirely possible that people can't afford to buy $30,000 vehicles, or don't want to go into debt to do so.

I never see an honest discussion on why vehicle pricing goes up year after year, when the trend for manufacturing and electronics is usually market forces driving down cost/price.

I get it. It's complex, but things are out of control.

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:

Look at the sales in your own link compared to 2014... Down

All car sales are down, all of them, Honda, Nissan, GM, Ford, Toyota, etc etc.

And Mazda is Ford.

Car sales are in the toilet across the board in the US. If you are an auto manufacturer do you make what the tree huggers and hippies want or do you make what you make money on?

Of course sedan sales are down from their peak, I never said they weren't. I was replying specifically to HRK's statement that says:

Reality is people don't want cars as a whole, sure some folks still want sedans, but for the industry, sedans are out of vogue now.

That sure makes it sound like nobody is buying ANY sedans at all because they "don't want them" and they are "out of vogue".

In reality the best selling sedan in the US is the Camry which sold 387k cars in 2017, and has 1st quarter sales of 90.6k for 2018. The best selling SUV in the US is the Rav4 which sold 407k cars in 2017 and has first quarter sales of 91.3k for 2018. So when looked at relative to the leading SUV yes people are still buying a substantial amount of sedans.

In 2006 Ford sold 174k Taurus' before they were discontinued. I remember it being blamed on the SUV fad back then as well. In the same year Toyota sold 448k Camry's and has continued to lead the sedan segment since.

So, as I said the first time, people are still buying lots of sedans, they just aren't buying American sedans.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Look at the sales in your own link compared to 2014... Down

All car sales are down, all of them, Honda, Nissan, GM, Ford, Toyota, etc etc.

My point exactly, the "Japan vs US Domestic" input always comes up, it's not true anymore nor is it the reason for Fords departure from the small sedan market.

The simple fact is the overall sedan market is shrinking.

At one time the Model T was the worlds largest selling car, but as times, design, technology and peoples needs changed, even Henry Ford had to begrudgingly change and ended the T then produced the Model A.

Its just a sign of the times.

Ok, so exactly when will Toyota be discontinuing the Camry due to unsustainably low sales?

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:

And Mazda is Ford.

Huh? While there were some joint ventures/component sharing going on in the past with the Ford Focus and Mazda3 and the Ford Fusion and Mazda6, I'm fairly certain those are over now and neither company has anything to do with the other now.

The domestic companies spent years not listening to consumers. They took our tax money.

Toyota and Honda made cars we want to buy, they still make cars we want to buy. Toyota has a great truck in the Tacoma. Hyundai closed the gap between themselves and Honda/Toyota with improving their quality and aggressive pricing.

What have the domestic brands done? Some of them, and their minions, believe they can beat the "keep jobs in America" drum but that's not that true anymore. Just look and see where the Japanese and Korean cars are made. They're made here in the US without union labor meddling.

We have a Honda and Kia. Our next vehicle after the Honda poops out, it's a 2003 Civic, will be a Japanese or Korean vehicle. For me, the only American vehicle I'd be willing to spend the money on is the Corvette and even at that, I would probably just buy a used one.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:

And Mazda is Ford.

Huh? While there were some joint ventures/component sharing going on in the past with the Ford Focus and Mazda3 and the Ford Fusion and Mazda6, I'm fairly certain those are over now and neither company has anything to do with the other now.

Yeah, Ford did sell of most of it. They still own part of it but they were majority share owner for a while. It wasn't just a joint venture, Ford owned them, but you are right they sold them off a few years back

quote:

Originally posted by Brett B:

Of course sedan sales are down from their peak, I never said they weren't. I was replying specifically to HRK's statement that says:

Reality is people don't want cars as a whole, sure some folks still want sedans, but for the industry, sedans are out of vogue now.

That sure makes it sound like nobody is buying ANY sedans at all because they "don't want them" and they are "out of vogue".

In reality the best selling sedan in the US is the Camry which sold 387k cars in 2017, and has 1st quarter sales of 90.6k for 2018. The best selling SUV in the US is the Rav4 which sold 407k cars in 2017 and has first quarter sales of 91.3k for 2018. So when looked at relative to the leading SUV yes people are still buying a substantial amount of sedans.

In 2006 Ford sold 174k Taurus' before they were discontinued. I remember it being blamed on the SUV fad back then as well. In the same year Toyota sold 448k Camry's and has continued to lead the sedan segment since.

So, as I said the first time, people are still buying lots of sedans, they just aren't buying American sedans.

The Camry had peak sales of 488K units in 2007, since then total sales are down 100K a year as 2017 sales were 387K.

And you don't see the decline, read my quote, as a whole people don't want cars, it didn't say they stopped completely, overall sedan sales dropped 11% last year alone.

The Camry sales while still quite a few cars shows the decline exists, they are flat for the past two years and are on pace to just meet last years sales with a complete redesign.

Quit trying to make it a Domestic vs Japan argument, it has nothing to do with Fords, Hondas, Kia, All auto companies use their focus groups are a decade or more ahead of 2018 sales, looking at trends in marketing, buying, design, style. Right now Fords development sees the sedan market shrinking further and profit margins don't support the investment in a shrinking market.

Innovate, adapt and overcome... It's smart.

The numbers prove overall sedans are becoming a smaller segment of the market, not yet the dodo, but it's the trend, the only way it stops is if the government outlaws them...

It has nothing to do with Japan vs Domestic.

If you are not a Ford stockholder why would you care if Ford stops selling cars that they are not making a profit on and no one wants to buy? I am a Ford stock holder and do care. I am glad they are cutting products that don't turn a profit. I want the Ford motor company to sell lots of nice pickups and SUV's and make a big profit so it can pay me a fat dividend. I don't care if it sells trucks, cars, washing machines or condoms, as long as it gives me a return on my investment. While I do love my F-150, if they did not make it I would still hold F stock as long as they where profitable and had a plan to continue to be so in the future.