quote:

Originally posted by Top Gun Supply:

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:


This is what I'm seeing.

The Taurus PT 111 G2 is a great example. One dealer has them for $221.95. The rest are at $259.95 and up.

Shockwaves - that should retail at $369.95? Most dealers are well above $400 for them. I've seen them for $469.95!

I have no interest in either, but I note when a new firearm comes on scene - learn the MSRP, then watch the gouging dealers move to screw people.

That is maybe a bit harsh. Just a quick cursory check of a distributor, I come up with these numbers.

Taurus PT 111 G2 - Dealer is $184 for black, $195 for SS. MSRP is $310 for black, $326 for SS.

Mossberg Shockwave - Dealer is $315, MSRP is $455.

That is a long way from gouging and screwing people.

So, selling a $184 pistol for $260 ($76 markup) isn't gouging?

Selling a $315 "Other" (Since the Shockwave is not a shotgun or a pistol) for $400 ($85 markup) isn't gouging? How about the ones selling them for $469.95 ($154.95 markup)?

What is the typical % markup that would be considered 'business' versus 'gouging'? Are we supposed to gladly pay MSRP? Where is the line?

I also order from you, and have long been satisfied with the products, service and pricing.

OK, what's the point of this?

If you don't trust TGS to give you the facts, then you must trust no one. You'd be hard pressed to find better vendors than Tom and Michelle.

Let's refrain from eating our own, shall we?

I'll say this- based upon my observations over the years, I'll say that anyone who got into the business of selling firearms in order to get rich was just dreaming.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Get California to roll back its insane gun laws and you'll see business pick up.

Yup or get national CCW reciprocity passed and see sales in California go up.

I to have been treated a little unfair by a local Gun Shop I have purchased from in the past.

When they were selling left and right pistols before the Single Shot Exemption went away.

Then there was the mad sales of rifles in California before California did away with the Bullet Button equipped AR15’s

Now things are slow and they may have to make up for lost sales by selling Ammo at a reasonable price next year.

I have seen cases of ammo at local gun shops over $100 marked up on a case of 40S&W. That is gouging. I know it is California.

quote:

Originally posted by David Lee:
kkina, I didn't know you manufactured this strut for the Mini 14. My impression was and we've been discussing the nature of firearms business as a whole. I never owned or shot a Mini. I've met very few people who actually own them. I understand some Law Enforcement Agencies use them. I dont know anyone who uses your struts on their Mini. What is good and bad times in your business is beyond my knowledge. I dont understand how anyone can remain in business based on 1 product which gets used by a limited group of people. I do know there are many Mini 14s out there but, I would think you could expand into other parts, for more rifles to add growth and profit. Just my thoughts.

Thanks, David. It was the idea to expand into other products, until my health became a problem.


The Mini-14 is a very popular sporting firearm, with limited use by law enforcement or military. I never planned on this business, it just kind of happened.

quote:

Originally posted by ontmark:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Get California to roll back its insane gun laws and you'll see business pick up.

Yup or get national CCW reciprocity passed and see sales in California go up.

I to have been treated a little unfair by a local Gun Shop I have purchased from in the past.

When they were selling left and right pistols before the Single Shot Exemption went away.

Then there was the mad sales of rifles in California before California did away with the Bullet Button equipped AR15’s

Now things are slow and they may have to make up for lost sales by selling Ammo at a reasonable price next year.

I have seen cases of ammo at local gun shops over $100 marked up on a case of 40S&W. That is gouging. I know it is California.

As I mentioned before, we are not a local shop selling only in CA. We are a manufacturer that sells wholesale to distributors in all 50 states.

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:


So, selling a $184 pistol for $260 ($76 markup) isn't gouging?

40% markup on a pistol isn't gouging. Think through the situation: store sells a pistol and gets $76 profit. It's not like that same customer will come back the next day to buy the another gun from you. It's not guaranteed that the customer will buy ammo from you. It's not like you can count selling a gun and making a $76 profit every hour. You're going to need to sell more than one gun every hour. And from your profits, you're going to have to pay your overhead costs, your inventory costs, and yourself and whoever else is in the business. One measly $76 profit isn't going to go very far. There really is a limit as to how many guns a person can buy; not every one has unlimited funds.

On the other hand, just for comparison. If you're concerned about the 40% profit the gun dealer makes, do you know the diabetes test strips that sell for $1 each and some people use 2 a day or even 4 a day? They only costs 4 cents to manufacture. That's just to have a comparative scale.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:


...do you know the diabetes test strips that sell for $1 each and some people use 2 a day or even 4 a day? They only costs 4 cents to manufacture. That's just to have a comparative scale.

Same for houses, vehicles, tools, furniture...the list goes on. The large markups exist everywhere with durable goods. Got that lesson.

PSA was running Ruger AR556's out the door for $450 about a week ago. I see other places still offering them for +$600. For a shop, I can see that pricing, but I'm not likely to buy one there; rather two from PSA. The market dynamics fluctuate, supply and demand reigns. The volume dealers are where many of the deals are.

But when you read NICS checks are through the roof and that sales are brisk and moving across the country, a complaint that sales are stagnant or slow involves other factors - and often that is price.

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
But when you read NICS checks are through the roof and that sales are brisk and moving across the country, a complaint that sales are stagnant or slow involves other factors - and often that is price.

It's a shame you don't know what type of person I am, or how hard I have worked to offer my invention to a needy clientbase at a fair price. If you'd bothered to have read the entire thread, you would have noticed that I lowered my prices at least twice. So maybe you're right, it is price. After all, if I had gouged my customers, I wouldn't be in financial straits at the moment. Is that what you think I should do?

I'm living off a credit card this month, and have to hear things like this?

(Also, Para specifically asked to stop member infighting over topics such as price-gouging.)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kkina,

I honestly think people who throw the word "gouging" around these parts without thinking really have no idea what normal household goods and foodstuffs 'cost', for real.

That bottle of wine you drink cost 25% of what you paid to make.

That sofa you sit on maybe cost 30% of what you paid.

I could go on and on and on, but some people just don't get it.

Supply and demand.

quote:

If you're concerned about the 40% profit the gun dealer makes...

I'm not. I gave up on paying it years ago. It didn't take long to determine the several gun shops in my area were overpriced and service was lacking. No apologies, but I'm not paying $12 for a 20 round box of 5.56 that I can order online and have delivered to my door for $6. Nor for refusing to pay $865.00+tax for a used 95% W.German P226 in 9mm when I had TWO fellows sell me theirs for $500 and $550 each. If they are depending on me to keep their doors open, they are going to be hurting. I can't remember being in any of them in a decade and a half. Someone is paying to keep the doors open, but it isn't me.

quote:

It's a shame you don't know what type of person I am, or how hard I have worked to offer my invention to a needy clientbase at a fair price. If you'd bothered to have read the entire thread, you would have noticed that I lowered my prices at least twice. So maybe you're right, it is price. After all, if I had gouged my customers, I wouldn't be in financial straits at the moment. Is that what you think I should do?

I never directed anything at you personally. I don't know anything about your invention(s), business or business model. And you positively don't know me either. All I am positing is, that in many cases, price is the factor when it comes to firearm sales - and even accessories, when things get slow. It is a competitive market and people often shop on price.

In this instance, as others have alluded, the market is somewhat saturated. I know at least 200 people that own and shoot firearms avidly. Not one of them owns a Mini-14. Having a single product designed for a firearm that's popularity has waned significantly with the surge of AR platform sales was to be expected. I'm not being un-sympathetic. I just see brisk sales in firearms now, interest is up and as others have alluded, the only ones I hear complaining are the dealers that continue to expect to charge premiums on items that are no longer in short supply.

I hope things pick up for you.

Without being intimately familiar with the firearms business, I will posit the following:

Perhaps the issue at hand for the slowing sales (for the OP) is that mini-14's aren't as popular anymore. Younger shooters tend towards the EBRs, and if you want a heavier rifle there are other, more accurate options.

We are spoilt for choice nowadays, and perhaps the Ruger Mini 14's time has come and gone.

I feel badly that my original post was poorly worded and misleading. Perhaps this published article is more cogent.
___________________________________________

The 'Trump Slump': Gun Sales Decline as Fears of Tighter Controls Fade

Barack Obama was called the ‘best gun salesman on the planet’. But with Trump in the White House, gun companies’ sales are down, and profits are falling.

Lois Beckett in New York
Thursday 24 August 2017 06.00 EDT
___________________________________________

After years of buying up military-style rifles out of fear that the government would ban them, firearms industry insiders say, some Americans may finally think they have enough guns. Since the election of Donald Trump, who called himself the “true friend” of gun rights activists, stock prices of gun manufacturers have fallen, and American retailers have reported slowing sales of guns and firearms accessories.

The number of gun background checks processed each month, a rough proxy for gun sales, has dropped compared to last year, except for May, the month a suicide bomber attacked an Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, England, leaving 22 people dead. Major terrorist incidents have been shown to drive increased sales in the past.

“The fact that everyone perceived Obama to be anti-gun and wants to take your gun rights away made everybody buy, buy, buy until everybody had a surplus,” said Jeremiah Blasi, the marketing director for Mid America Armament, a small firearms and firearm accessories manufacturer based in Pryor, Oklahoma.

“I think people have gotten … I think I’d use the word complacent,” Blasi said. Because Trump appears to be supportive of gun owners, “nobody’s as concerned that we’re going to lose gun rights in the immediate future”.

It’s the great irony of America’s gun debate: anti-gun politicians boost profits for the firearms industry, and pro-gun politicians hurt them.

The perverse dynamics of the gun market have long turned political attempts to change the role of guns in American life into massive marketing campaigns.

Barack Obama, who led the most serious push for tougher gun control laws in more than a decade, was called “the best gun salesman on the planet”. In contrast, the current president’s influence on the gun industry has been labeled the “Trump slump”.

Blasi said Mid America Armament’s sales were down about 25% compared with last year, and sales at gun shows had dropped even more steeply, about 50%.

The company builds both AR-15-style rifles and firearms accessories. But it is currently focused more on selling accessories than the guns themselves.

“The market really seems saturated. A lot of people are still doing upgrades and builds, but not a whole lot of rifle purchases,” he said. “Even on the accessories end, there’s been a slowdown.”

Major manufacturers have also felt the hit. The stock prices for Sturm Ruger and American Outdoor Brands Corporation, formerly Smith & Wesson, dropped sharply after election day, and after rebounding this spring fell again.

Cabela’s, an outdoor goods retailer, reported a 9% drop in store sales in its second quarter this year and blamed the weakness in gun sales. “Since the fall election, we have continued to see a slowdown in firearms and shooting-related categories,” the company’s CEO, Tommy Millner, said in a statement in early August. The retailer acknowledged that the mass shooting at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando last year had also driven sales up.

Year-on-year comparisons of gun sales, however, show that in spite of the marked fall, sales of guns in America are still at a relative high point. More than 14 million background checks had already been processed by the end of July, which is more than the year-end totals for any year between 1998 and 2009, the final years of Bill Clinton’s presidency and the two terms of George W Bush’s presidency.

“Reports of the industry’s pending demise are greatly exaggerated,” Mike Bazinet, a spokesman for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the firearms industry trade association, wrote in an email. “2017 is still a very strong year by historic standards and, in fact, we are on track to see the second or third highest year since the [background check] system began.” (ED: see Jljones' post on why backround check statistics are not a good way to gauge actual sales.)

[article truncated for brevity]

The "Trump Slump"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kkina,

A few things never surprise me when talking about firearm prices. The first thing is how much people who have never been in the firearms business know about the firearms business. Second is that "G" word (gouging). Price gouging always gets thrown around. Let me give some insight from a dealers perspective (even though I am part time I've been doing this for several years now and have been doing it long enough to know I never want to do this as my sole means of income). I ma not attacking anyone so hopefully it does not come off that way.

First, NICS checks do not directly represent the firearms sold since many free states like Texas do not require NICS checks with a valid license to carry/concealed carry license. I am sure there is a correlation but it is not a die hard number to go by.

Second, I am a member of a forum only for FFL's and people across the country are seeing a slow down. Normally summer is slow anyway but many FFL's (both brick and mortar and home based) are seeing the slowdown so NICS cannot be representing the overall picture. Just because you can post an article you pulled off of Google doesn't mean it makes your claims on the firearms industry true.

Third, there is a race to the bottom on firearm pricing. Dealers are cost averaging and selling below cost to get sales. You need to keep in mind that the large dealers belong to buying clubs and get everything cheaper than the smaller FFL so obviously they can sell cheaper.

Fourth, I get sick of hearing about price gouging and honestly I have never seen it with firearms. If you don't like the price don't buy it. You pay $3 for a frilly cup of coffee yet cry about firearm price gouging as you sip your overpriced latte. Did you pay $3000 for that Colt Python that sold for under $500 when new yet complain about paying $100 over cost for that new firearm? Just don't complain when there are no more brick and mortar stores left since you keep going to the lowest priced seller online instead of buying local. Honestly I couldn't care less if people buy from me, I don't have time to do much business on the side and I have regular customers I am more than happy to deal with. Think about overhead that the gun stores need to make, I know of a local dealer/gun range that had a 25k per month overhead just to break even (and that was a few years ago). He needed to make 25k every month just to pay the bills before making any profit. People complain about their high transfer fees yet complain when they cannot find a nice gun shop/range around. The money has to come from somewhere to pay for those nice facilities.

Fifth, online sellers like Budsgunshop buy at a lower cost due to their volume and avoid charging sales tax if you are out of state. I can beat Buds on just about any price until I have to charge sales tax. Just because Buds has "x" gun for $$$ doesn't mean your local shop can sell that cheap so stop expecting that.

Lastly, stop acting like a firearm consultant when you have no experience in the industry and stop talking about price gouging. Enjoy the low prices while they are low, stock up and get ready for the next gun grabber to get into office - I assure you it is coming.

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
So, selling a $184 pistol for $260 ($76 markup) isn't gouging?

Selling a $315 "Other" (Since the Shockwave is not a shotgun or a pistol) for $400 ($85 markup) isn't gouging? How about the ones selling them for $469.95 ($154.95 markup)?

What is the typical % markup that would be considered 'business' versus 'gouging'? Are we supposed to gladly pay MSRP? Where is the line?

I also order from you, and have long been satisfied with the products, service and pricing.

Back before the Internet turned retail on its head, the rule of thumb was 100% markup for retail in general. This sounds egregious until you consider patroll, payroll taxes, workers compensation, liability insurance, rent, utilities, permits, taxes, fees, etc.

$76 on the Taurus is less than a 50% markup. $85 on the Shockwave is just under a 27% markup. I wouldn't consider either to be even on the same planet as gouging.

Yes, you can buy many things *MUCH* cheaper on the Internet, but with firearms you still need an FFL to transfer it for you and they still need to earn enough of a profit to feed their kids. They are getting squeezed and hard, and if things keep going in the direction they are going, there are going to be a whole lot less LGSs out there...

Everyone knows that all things grow on trees or fall to the earth like rain.

The retailers simply jump in front of everyone else and grab everything before we get a chance, only to sell it to us at astronomical prices so they can make insane profit and pay off the gods to tip them off of the timeing of the trees fruiting and the rains falling.

We're just schmucks on wheels being ripped off.

Down with the establishment, man.

I lost my ass with my shop that I ran part time. I dropped out when I saw the writing on the wall that I didn't have the capital or time to throw all the chips in and stick with it. Instead I went all in with my day job that was paying the bills. That was in 2011.
I basically gave away my book of business to another guy who went all in with SOT and I helped him set up with some customers out of the gate. He was starting to do well until this slump. He locked his doors this week.
I loved doing net transfers, that was cash with nothing tied up in it. A small dealer buying from distributors you'd do your best to have something on the shelves but it is hard to have five figures or more sitting there in inventory gathering dust. I really lost money on gun sales at the end of the day. The only thing profitable for me were the shop services and transfers. I specialized in cleaning / minor repairs and tune ups, mounting scopes, etc.

Whether buying or selling. It is always a bad time for someone. Just the nature of the beast.

I am kind of in a sell frame of mind right now. So not necessarily good for me.

But I will take that as everything else is much better. So there!

quote:

What is the typical % markup that would be considered 'business' versus 'gouging'? Are we supposed to gladly pay MSRP? Where is the line?

When I hear shit like this ^^ it only goes to show you how many people have NO concept of business let alone respect for it.
It's always a win/lose game.