If only all of the Fucktards on the planes were passengers things would be so much simpler.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
What? They gave me a placard with a picture that says pull the red handle in an emergency and I agreed to do that to get the extra leg room.

Plane is on the ground and on fire? The handle is getting pulled

That kind of thinking gets people killed. You have no idea what the crew is doing, what they know, what communications are happening between cockpit and cabin, what communications are happening between cockpit and the Fire Chief and the tower.

Here are several scenarios:

1) Active significant fire (not just a laptop battery) inside the cabin
2) Thick acrid smoke or fumes in the cabin making breathing impossible
3) Aircraft is broken into pieces, including the cabin, with fire and/or smoke inside
4) Engine fire, has not penetrated the cabin, the air inside is breathable
5) Fuel tank apparently breached, the ground outside is on fire
6) Landing gear fire, with some smoke and possibly some flames visible outside the cabin
7) Aircraft off the runway, perhaps some/all of the landing gear has collapsed
8) A situation in flight results in flight attendants briefing the cabin for possible evacuation after landing

Do you independently open an emergency exit either without first being instructed to by the flight crew, or in contradiction to flight crew instructions to remain seated?

YES, GTFO for 1, 2, and 3. Be clear though that these are situations where survival in the cabin under current conditions is immediately and seriously threatened, and going outside might be even worse.

The remaining scenarios you will be far better off remaining in your seat and complying with flight crew instructions.

Airport fire fighters are highly trained and skilled. They have the right equipment. The fire chief is expert at assessing the situation. The Chief will be in radio contact with the Captain to keep the crew informed of what they are seeing from outside, and can instruct the Captain to either keep people inside or to evacuate. The Captain makes the decision, but the Fire Chief provides invaluable information which cannot be otherwise known from inside the aircraft.

The flight attendants typically ask that window shades be up for takeoff and landing, especially at the emergency exit rows. Why? So they can look out and assess threats such as fire, smoke, sharp debris, emergency vehicles, or active fire fighting.

The typical flight deck and cabin crew sequence is something like this when the Captain has determined either to evacuate or that an evacuation is likely:

The aircraft comes to a stop.

Captain to FA: "Prepare for evacuation. Assess and wait for my command."

Captain to passengers via the PA: "This is your Captain. REMAIN SEATED. FOLLOW FLIGHT ATTENDANT INSTRUCTIONS. REMAIN SEATED.

Captain to FO: "Emergency Evacuation Checklist"
The cockpit crew run the checklist to shut down engines, shut down fuel pumps, close fuel valves, turn on emergency lighting, inform tower of the situation and intentions. The tower and Fire Chief will communicate to the Captain what they observe.

Cabin crew assess the situation inside the cabin as well as what they can see outside. They communicate to the lead FA. Cabin crew prep the cabin and make passenger announcements as the situation calls for.

If the FAs note a dangerous condition, they will communicate it to the Captain. E.g. fire on one side of the aircraft but not the other, or fire at the aft end of the aircraft, or debris in a certain area outside.

Upon the decision to evacuate, Captain on the PA: "EVACUATE EVACUATE EVACUATE".

Flight Attendants will then open emergency exits while giving loud instructions on where to go to evacuate and leave all your fucking stuff behind.

Fire outside the aircraft is not an immediate threat to life inside the cabin. Opening any emergency exit can let fire or toxic smoke into the cabin. Engines may still be running, which is an obvious danger. Arriving fire trucks can run over passengers. People are for sure going to be injured in an evacuation even when done properly and orderly, so it isn't a light decision to pop open exits.

Some of these responses reinforce the point I made. You may think pilots and flight attendants are fucktards but we are trained fucktards who have actually considered your safety and thought through the safest responses to varying conditions. But sure, just follow the lumberjack sitting next to you. lol.

Like they say "Look both ways before crossing the runway"

I think that SOME pilots and flight attendants are certainly Fucktards, along with SOME passengers. But I am not a pilot and do fly when I need to, so that probably makes me a Fucktard.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
What? They gave me a placard with a picture that says pull the red handle in an emergency and I agreed to do that to get the extra leg room.

Plane is on the ground and on fire? The handle is getting pulled

That kind of thinking gets people killed.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
I’m joking of course.

For clarity, I was joking, said as much, and not advocating for people to ignore the flight crew or firefighters.

On the other hand, yes, you are the flight crew, smarter and better trained than everyone else. Is it not ridiculous that your perfect plan depends on Joe Shmoe whose sole qualification for picking the emergency exit row was want of extra leg room without the benefit of years of training?

I read you were joking. You seemed to have missed an important part of the briefing though. If you sit in the overwing exit it is important enough that those rows are by federal regulation required to get an individual briefing. It is that important. Included in this briefing is an admonition that you are required to positively verify and verbally acknowledge that you understand those instructions and will comply. If you don’t affirm both every airline in America will pluck you out of that seat and sit you somewhere else regardless of whether you paid for THAT seat.

Since you stated you have sat there then you know full well that nowhere in that briefing do they tell you to open that exit at your discretion. Fly Sig broke it down pretty well. Fuselage in pieces, crew dead or injured, open flames/unbreathable smoke in the cabin. A reject with an engine fire? No, you shouldn’t be making an evacuation call. At all.

People think they know more than they do. In most cases they don’t. It isn’t their world, they don’t have practical experience, they don’t have the facts. Dunning Kruger. Don’t know shit but absolutely convinced they are the hero in the story. Main character syndrome. Call it whatever you want.

Don’t self initiate an evacuation outside those stated events. Don’t bring your luggage or carry ons if you do evacuate. This is how people get hurt or die. It really is as simple as that.

By the death being ruled a suicide, would that not make it much harder for lawsuits against the airline, airport, et al to be held responsible?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

For clarity, I was joking, said as much, and not advocating for people to ignore the flight crew or firefighters.

On the other hand, yes, you are the flight crew, smarter and better trained than everyone else. Is it not ridiculous that your perfect plan depends on Joe Shmoe whose sole qualification for picking the emergency exit row was want of extra leg room without the benefit of years of training?

I saw that you were joking and thus didn't respond with "Your thinking gets people killed". Sorry for being vague.

My wife travelled a lot for work, and now frequently in retirement. I was pretty shocked when she said:
A) She'd never considered that emergency row passengers shouldn't decide when to open the exits. She just had never run the idea through about different scenarios, just that the card and the briefing said how to open the exit in case of emergency.
B) Neither the card nor the briefing said not to open the exit unless instructed to by crew.

This seems to be kind of a blind spot for those of us in the industry, that we know what is or isn't an emergency, and we assume passengers understand that we will tell them what to do. Whereas the public thinks everything is an emergency, and they assume being in an emergency row confers total decision authority.

I have noticed more specific information being added to the emergency card about not opening certain exits in case of a water landing.

This event in DEN will probably result in more lengthy briefings and warnings about opening emergency exits.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:

Since you stated you have sat there then you know full well that nowhere in that briefing do they tell you to open that exit at your discretion.

I’m sorry, it’s been at least ten years since I sat in an emergency exit row and while I remember affirming in the positive that I agreed to whatever was said, I do not at all remember what was actually said.

“Public records indicate [Michail] Mott was experiencing homelessness at the time and had an extensive criminal history in Colorado spanning over two decades.”

No surprise.

And...it's started. It was just a matter of time.

"Austin law firm seeks $10M after fatal Frontier runway incident in Denver

An Austin law firm says it plans to sue the city and county of Denver on behalf of passengers aboard a Frontier Airlines flight involved in last week's fatal runway incident at Denver International Airport.

The lawsuit alleges airport security failures allowed a man to access the runway, leading to the deadly incident and traumatizing passengers aboard the plane.

Austin-based DJC Law said it is representing several Denver-area passengers who were aboard the flight. The firm is working alongside Ramos Law, which represents additional passengers.

The firms said in a joint statement that passengers suffered traumatic physical and psychological effects from the incident.

"Our clients - passengers who paid for safe transportation and instead lived through one of the most preventable aviation incidents in recent memory - are now confronting both physical and psychological injuries arising from that night," the firms said."

Link

I went and read the actual briefing. Fly sig is correct. It doesn’t really tell you not to open it specifically. It kind of implies that you open it when directed but I can see the ambiguity potential. Hmmm.

OK. Time for airlines to pre-takeoff brief, that the Aircrew and/or Flight Attendants will announce emergency exit, unless it is a catastrophic event.

Realize the reason this has not been "a thing", is because of brevity, and the reality that most people can't be bothered to pay attention for more than a minute, even if their own and other's lives depend on it.

I don't give a shit what anyone has to say, the "fucktards" are not forward of the crew door...

Show me any proof that an aircrew member or Flight Attendant ever grabbed their carry one and exited an aircraft during an emergency.

Show it to me...


And I will bet all the bananas I will ever have going forward in life, that some sleeze bag lawyer has stinky fingers all over the "why" it is not clarified in briefing or the "placard" as to "DO NOT OPEN THE EMERGENCY EXIT UNLESS AIRCREW OR FLIGHT ATTENDANTS INSTRUCT YOU!!!".

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

My wife travelled a lot for work, and now frequently in retirement. I was pretty shocked when she said:
A) She'd never considered that emergency row passengers shouldn't decide when to open the exits. She just had never run the idea through about different scenarios, just that the card and the briefing said how to open the exit in case of emergency.
B) Neither the card nor the briefing said not to open the exit unless instructed to by crew.

Did you give her the “That kind of thinking gets people killed” lecture?

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:

And I will bet all the bananas I will ever have going forward in life, that some sleeze bag lawyer has stinky fingers all over the "why" it is not clarified in briefing or the "placard" as to "DO NOT OPEN THE EMERGENCY EXIT UNLESS AIRCREW OR FLIGHT ATTENDANTS INSTRUCT YOU!!!".

Can you imagine how many pages of legalese would be required to explain the exact conditions when a passenger could, should, or should not open the exit?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

Did you give her the “That kind of thinking gets people killed” lecture?

I know when to keep my mouth shut!

That right there is the crux of this particular issue. You buy a cell phone for calls/texts and no threat to life and it comes with 25 pages of legalese. You sit in the emergency exit row where people’s lives could potentially be at stake. Let’s say, 100 pages minimum. lol.

Now as far as evac’ing with carry ons that is much simpler. Massive fines. Denied privileges. Etc. That is a much easier fix.