quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:

The ATF isn't going door to door in south Chicago looking for Glock switches. They are going door to door in the burbs looking for FRT's.

If you do a search for "Glock" on Youtube, you don't have to scroll far to see gangster gangbangers showing off their Glock switches in action. Youtube seems to be promoting these videos because they are always close to the top. At times, Youtube will promote videos posted by gangbangers with almost no subscribers ahead of many well known firearm related channels. Strange don't you think?

I would like to know how many of these videos are investigated by the ATF. Zero?

quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:
I don't know? 800000 bump stocks were manufactured and less than 500 were turned int o the ATF. 10-40,000,000 braces were sold 225,000 folks registered them. That doesn't sound like like "thoroughly conditioned obeyance." Kind of sounds like a F-U to the government to me ears.

Just how many of those 10-40 million braced weapon owners even know the ATF has effectively outlawed them? I've talked to plenty of folks who had no idea the ATF was doing this... Serious question, lots of "unplugged" people out there.

Question on the 4473s.
Did the agents inventory and receipt each one?
That is, after a couple of years the IRS “returns” the forms, then BATFE shows up demanding specific forms. When no forms are found, would the shop be shut down?

quote:

Originally posted by apprentice:
If their ranks were reduced 90% or more tomorrow...damn fine day.

Yes, but crying shame that the other 10% didn’t get their pink slips too.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:

I have no faith that anyone will stand opposed to the alphabet agencies.
I hope I get proved wrong on this but I honestly think people have been too thoroughly conditioned to obey .

Resistance is futile so why stand up, eh?

You two keep banging this drum, so I'm gonna bang the other side of it again. Scroll up, click on the link I posted, then download that pdf and read the whole thing. No, really, read it. The whole thing. Honestly, everyone on this forum should. I own a rare hard copy. It's a little dated, and the writer dabbles in some cheap thrills to keep casual readers interested, but guys like you and me are there for the meat and potatoes and boys, there's a feast. It's history mixed with fiction that isn't really fiction. Read it, the whole thing, and you'll understand.

Some of us have more to lose than others, and are willing to walk a line until bad faith actors push too far. We all have a point we won't be pushed past. Read the book, and stop wringing your fucking hands about people who registered braced pistols who were going to register them as SBR's anyways. I assure you cold and flat one last time that from where I'm sitting, it surely the fuck does not mean what you think it means. Stop calling us cowards, directly or obliquely, it's all the same to me. We need to stick together on this one, not commence to taking potshots at those we perceive as not properly standing up and sounding off with a hearty "tax this dick, Fedboi!" If what you think is coming is actually coming, you're gonna wanna make friends in the meantime, not play into fragmenting the community, and I say this as someone who likes and respects you both. Stop it.

^
You talking to me or smschulz?

I wasn't talking about any member here. Most here seem to be more aware of the current climate out there. I was speaking on the unwashed masses who's only source of education is the local news channel and Yahoo.
That and as I clearly stated, I hope I'm overly pessimistic.
My faux crystal ball predictions and personal feelings are all I'm sharing. Get over yourself and have a smoke.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
https://billstclair.com/Unintended-Consequences.pdf

Reading on monitors, Kindle, etc. are kinda hard for me.

WOW! hardcover and paperback versions a quite expensive.

And there are many totally different publications the exact same title.

Who is Bill St. Clair?
https://www.billstclair.com/

^^^^
Read the book. It is fantastic.

Whatever happens I think will be started by someone or a few people who have little or nothing to lose. Maybe they're terminally ill, a widower, or just plan to go out in a blaze of glory. Think of Killdozer or a crazy mass shooter, but who instead goes after bad guys, knowing he won't be around to deal with the aftermath.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
^^^^
Read the book. It is fantastic.

Whatever happens I think will be started by someone or a few people who have little or nothing to lose. Maybe they're terminally ill, a widower, or just plan to go out in a blaze of glory. Think of Killdozer or a crazy mass shooter, but who instead goes after bad guys, knowing he won't be around to deal with the aftermath.

Have you read the book "Unintended Consequences" (UC)? It's a fascinating story and Part 3 is possibly prophetic. I believe it is the origin of the acronym ATFOTRAF.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
You talking to me or smschulz?

Both.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
I wasn't talking about any member here.

Oh, well it was easy to read as a continuation of your prior commentary on the matter since you didn't delineate it as such.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
Most here seem to be more aware of the current climate out there. I was speaking on the unwashed masses who's only source of education is the local news channel and Yahoo.

Whatever you and I think of them in general, I think they have their hard lines, too. You think the same people who kitted up in body armor, helmets, gas masks, radios, rifles and mags to go rioting the prior two years are just gonna hand 'em over when the man shows up? I disagree with their politics and I think they're misguided, but I think it would be a mistake to just assume they're all total pussies. I think the "Demoracts get the wall first" crowd are just as liable to shoot uniforms on their doorstep whether it's a D or an R in office, and the unwashed masses take their queues from the loudest people in the room, right or left.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
That and as I clearly stated, I hope I'm overly pessimistic.
My faux crystal ball predictions and personal feelings are all I'm sharing. Get over yourself and have a smoke.

I'm just sharing my own personal feelings and crystal ball predictions on the matter, but I'm trying to do it in a way that doesn't draw lines through the 2A community. The bootlicker cuck memes don't help. You can decide for yourself whether I'm taking myself too seriously or if it's me trying in good faith to suggest you lay off with that whole mindset because I don't see what good it does us. You've posted enough of that stuff that when you posted what you did, I'm sure you can understand how it was easy to see it as a continuation of it, no?

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
WOW! hardcover and paperback versions a quite expensive.

It hasn't been in print since the mid 90's, there were limited printings, and the publishers got death threats. So, it's really hard to run down original copies like the hardback I got gifted. My eyes are starting to go, so I know it's hard on a screen, but struggle through it if you can, it's absolutely worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Who is Bill St. Clair?

I'm honestly not sure, it's just a place I found where the whole book is available for free because it is no longer in print and nobody owns the rights to it anymore.

Link to the proper book mentioned above:

Unintended Consequences by John Ross

Believe it or not, this was my first Amazon purchase when it was a newly on the market and all they sold were books.

Just to clarify, the book is still out of print and that’s a 1996 edition of it. You’re paying collector’s prices to own a hard copy vs a free digital edition. I think it’s worth owning, just putting it in perspective.

Dang, I bought a paperback version and gave it to my son after reading it online, but it wasn’t anything like that current Amazon price!

quote:

Originally posted by Icabod:
Question on the 4473s.
Did the agents inventory and receipt each one?
That is, after a couple of years the IRS “returns” the forms, then BATFE shows up demanding specific forms. When no forms are found, would the shop be shut down?

Yes, that is grounds for revoking the license; however, if IRS didn’t inventory and receipt each 4473 taken, the licensee can point to the warrant authorizing seizure and removal of these documents from the licensed location, and legitimately say “Talk to the IRS. They seized them all and apparently lost those BATFE now seeks.”

In short, a claim of Force Majure.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:

I have no faith that anyone will stand opposed to the alphabet agencies.
I hope I get proved wrong on this but I honestly think people have been too thoroughly conditioned to obey .

Resistance is futile so why stand up, eh?

You two keep banging this drum, so I'm gonna bang the other side of it again.

Some of us have more to lose than others, and are willing to walk a line until bad faith actors push too far. We all have a point we won't be pushed past.

Stop calling us cowards, directly or obliquely, it's all the same to me.
"Stop it"

^^ Isn't that the point?
Everyone has their line of values they draw the line.
So why are you wishing to censor the view of that line?
No need to be so sensitive .


PS I bought the book.

quote:

Originally posted by apprentice:
Link to the proper book mentioned above:

Unintended Consequences by John Ross

Believe it or not, this was my first Amazon purchase when it was a newly on the market and all they sold were books.

Kindle version is $10, so if you have a Kindle or, the App on an iDevice you can get it for a reasonable price.

Very Wierd. I had some dealings with the IRS CID guys in NY a number of years ago. They were all about going after drug money 9drug dealers aren't too kean on paying taxes). The ones I dealt with wouldn't know a 4473 if it bit them. I don't see what the IRS would do with 4473s unless they were trying to find assets/money.

Any chance this was a Task Force type of deal or was this actually an IRS show with ATF strap hangers?

The news just said they took the camera system.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
Very Wierd. I had some dealings with the IRS CID guys in NY a number of years ago. They were all about going after drug money 9drug dealers aren't too kean on paying taxes). The ones I dealt with wouldn't know a 4473 if it bit them. I don't see what the IRS would do with 4473s unless they were trying to find assets/money.

Any chance this was a Task Force type of deal or was this actually an IRS show with ATF strap hangers?

I wonder if it was really an ATF show with ATF/IRS/other agencies special agents.

I definitely don't know myself and no one shares case information unless there is a need to know.

I've worked cases or had cases worked in my area which were CID tagged because it was drug-related/fraud/etc.

I've seen Special Agents finally go somewhere they tend take as many Alphabet agencies Special Agents that could be there for any reason, coordinating with DOJ.

I wonder if all were really armed, it could have been a few higher level IRS Revenue Officers or Revenue Agents (Tax Collectors and Auditors respectively for normal folk)-- Both of those are unarmed but tend to come with IRS CID for the civil side of tax enforcement/audits.

Thinking of different situations : illegal guns/NFA guns, , criminal level non-payment/tax fraud, human trafficking, printing fake bills, robbed a bank, burned down a forest, etc, different combinations of things would lead to a different "Alphabet Soup" of Special Agents.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin228:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
Very Wierd. I had some dealings with the IRS CID guys in NY a number of years ago. They were all about going after drug money 9drug dealers aren't too kean on paying taxes). The ones I dealt with wouldn't know a 4473 if it bit them. I don't see what the IRS would do with 4473s unless they were trying to find assets/money.

Any chance this was a Task Force type of deal or was this actually an IRS show with ATF strap hangers?

I wonder if all were really armed, it could have been a few higher level IRS Revenue Officers or Revenue Agents (Tax Collectors and Auditors respectively for normal folk)-- Both of those are unarmed but tend to come with IRS CID for the civil side of tax enforcement/audits.

ATAT (abusive tax avoidance transactions) Revenue Officers can and do work jeopardy type cases in coordination with IRS CI 1811s, but would that be realistic for this scenario? This is a gun shop not a garage full of cars or a blue water yacht owned by internationally connected criminal enterprises. That doesn't really seem to fit the facts here.

It is also not common for IRS civil enforcement (and even less common for Revenue Agents) to get approval for an armed escort without compelling circumstances. That is unusual and just doesn't happen often in practice, even with ATAT GS-13 cases.

The facts are not all available, but this case looks different than the norm for IRS CI and ATF.