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I Know Absolutely Nothing About AR Rifles. Login/Join 
Member
Picture of RichardC
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quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:

...free AR classes offered by Florida Gun Exchange, once a month or so. The November offering was today. I made the drive, car-pooling with another forum member. The promised 1.5 hour class stretched to almost 2.5 hours and was really informative. A rifle was taken apart, step-by-step, for inspection and cleaning.

The class leader / instructor was a gunsmith, he had quite a few techniques for simplifying some of the steps, showed us what to look for in parts that wear, and how to detect problem areas and potential failures. A free class; if the entry fee were $25 or so, I probably would have hesitated to attend, but after the fact I believe that it would have been well worth it.

Smile


Next class, January 20th.

I want to go.

http://floridagunexchange.com/event-calendar/


_____________________


 
Posts: 9331 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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8 years active duty Army. Not sure if that matters, but my advise is to think through what your AR needs for its stated purpose. What caliber, operating system (cans or not), barrel length, accessories, etc.... Don’t overload it with add ons that your mission doesn’t demand. Example - a 1-6x24 optic with illuminated reticle is a great option for longer ranges and varied lighting conditions, but it might not be the best choice for you.
 
Posts: 2421 | Location: Unass the AO | Registered: December 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arlen
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I would not use an AR for home defense if I lived in the city. The round goes through walls and continues to travel. I would stick with a handgun or shotgun so that I would not cause harm to my neighbors.


Regards,
arlen

======================
Some days, it's just not worth the effort of chewing through the leather straps.
======================
 
Posts: 325 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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As has been demonstrated even in YouTube videos, many handgun bullets and certainly shotgun slugs are capable of far more penetration through building materials than lightweight 223/5.56mm projectiles. Many people make assumptions that simply are not valid.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 37877 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by arlen:
I would not use an AR for home defense if I lived in the city. The round goes through walls and continues to travel. I would stick with a handgun or shotgun so that I would not cause harm to my neighbors.

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
As has been demonstrated even in YouTube videos, many handgun bullets and certainly shotgun slugs are capable of far more penetration through building materials than lightweight 223/5.56mm projectiles. Many people make assumptions that simply are not valid.

+1 to sigfreund
 
Posts: 5249 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arlen
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There are certainly anomalies. But judged on a bell curve, I would not use a magnum round (the 5.56mm is basically a magnum round) in close quarters.
Short barrels of the handgun also play a part in the travel of the bullet, as opposed to the longer rifle barrels.
Who would use a slug in a shotgun for home defense?
The short barrel versions of the AR are definitely a fine tool for urban combat, but not home defense.

I would also like to add that the bullet choice is also very important. Choose a configuration that will expend most of its energy quickly after it meets resistance. It should be the goal for the bullet to spend all of its energy within the villain, melon, or wall. (or whatever the bullet hits) Home defense is not a "buy a weapon" and the "problem solved!" type of deal. Ammunition is also a very important consideration.
The home defense shotgun needs to be a short, "open" barrel so that the shot does its damage within the walls of your home.


Regards,
arlen

======================
Some days, it's just not worth the effort of chewing through the leather straps.
======================
 
Posts: 325 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by arlen:
I would not use a magnum round (the 5.56mm is basically a magnum round) in close quarters.

The short barrel versions of the AR are definitely a fine tool for urban combat, but not home defense.

I would also like to add that the bullet choice is also very important. Choose a configuration that will expend most of its energy quickly after it meets resistance. It should be the goal for the bullet to spend all of its energy within the villain, melon, or wall. (or whatever the bullet hits) Home defense is not a "buy a weapon" and the "problem solved!" type of deal. Ammunition is also a very important consideration.

The home defense shotgun needs to be a short, "open" barrel so that the shot does its damage within the walls of your home.

<< sigh >>

The 223 can only be considered a magnum round if magnum is defined as (1) more kinetic energy than a common handgun caliber and (2) the cartridge has a bottle neck case. Common handgun calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, etc) produce muzzle energies in the 300 to 500 foot pound range, and the bullets move slowly enough that they produce very limited temporary wound channels. Depending on barrel length and bullet, ARs commonly produce muzzle energies in the 1000 to 1200 foot pound range, including signficant temporary wound channels.

A proper 223 bullet tumbles and fragments upon impact in soft tissue. The proper bullet fragments in sheetrock, and does not travel into other rooms like many handgun bullets. Even handgun bullets designed to expand well.

Until a shotgun barrel gets really short -- well below 16" -- short barrels on shotguns don't really make much difference in how the shot pattern flies. Still roughly the same muzzle velocity, still roughly the same pattern. It's the choke that makes the difference in pattern spread. Pellet size makes a big difference, too. Bird shot patterns open up at 2 to 3 times faster over a given distance than buckshot. As for penetration in bad guys or walls, it's the size of the shot that really makes the difference. Bird shot doesn't penetrate walls very well, but it can be defeated by heavy clothing, such as a good leather motorcycle jacket. Thus, a shallow wound in the bad guy, with limited effect. Good shot penetration in bad guys means larger shot, like buck shot. But buckshot is very good at penetrating walls. Maybe even worse than handgun bullets, because buckshot really doesn't expand -- it only flattens a bit upon resistance.

Basically, your comment on short, open barrels has no validity.

Many people will state that a SBR AR-15 is a very valid home defense weapon. Limited recoil, great ammo capacity, easy to reload, bullets that fragment well, easily suppressed.
 
Posts: 5249 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arlen
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Many people will suggest the AR for home defense because they want it to be a home defense weapon. Some would praise the virtues of a bazooka.

If my statement on short, open barrels has no validity, then the history of shotguns and chokes has been wrong for many decades.

And, I would volunteer to stand at 100 yards, with my back to you, and let you shoot away at me with a shotgun (bird shot). But there is no way, that I would stand at 20 feet, wearing a leather jacket, and expect to survive a gut shot from the same shotgun, no matter the choke or lack of it.

But, don't get me wrong, I think that the shotgun is too long to wield at night whenever encountering an intruder. And so is the SBR AR.

The handgun is the way to go. Then choose the ammo wisely.


Regards,
arlen

======================
Some days, it's just not worth the effort of chewing through the leather straps.
======================
 
Posts: 325 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gracie Allen is my
personal savior!
posted Hide Post
Yeah, but at that point the comparison goes right back to the lighter 5.56 bullets.
 
Posts: 21245 | Location: Deep in the heart of the brush country, and closing on that #&*%!?! roadrunner. Really. | Registered: February 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by arlen:
The home defense shotgun needs to be a short, "open" barrel so that the shot does its damage within the walls of your home.
...
If my statement on short, open barrels has no validity, then the history of shotguns and chokes has been wrong for many decades.

You are showing your lack of understanding of the ballistics of various size shotgun pellets -- from the smallest bird shot to the largest buck shot.
 
Posts: 5249 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arlen
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And you forgot steel and bismuth.

I am aware of the various size of shotgun pellets and their ballistic properties. There are so many variables that go into the choice of a home defense weapon that not discussing one aspect does not mean that there is ignorance of that aspect.
Choice of a weapon is one thing. Choice of ammo is another.


Regards,
arlen

======================
Some days, it's just not worth the effort of chewing through the leather straps.
======================
 
Posts: 325 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by arlen:
And you forgot steel and bismuth.

Oh, that's rich.

Why not throw shot alloys specifically designed for shotgun waterfowl hunting -- where lead alloys aren't allowed -- into what you started as a home defense weapon & ammo derailment of a AR-15 discussion. A nearly two-month journey of V-tail's entry to AR-15 ownership.

If you have something to add to V-Tail's understanding of AR-15s, I suspect he and others would be pleased to follow along. Otherwise.....
 
Posts: 5249 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Facts are stubborn things
Picture of armedprof
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V-Tail,

Is it built yet? Pictures?

I can vouch for Classic Firearms. They are local to me a a good group of folks.

Great thread.





Do, Or do not. There is no try.
 
Posts: 1365 | Location: Charlotte, NC | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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quote:
Originally posted by armedprof:
V-Tail,

Is it built yet?
No. Small business owner here, trying to keep up with end-of-year stuff, and cope with the busy season. I just have not had a chance to sit down and do the things I really want to do, too busy doing the things that I have to do.

The panic usually slacks off toward the end of January, so I'm hoping to get to it then.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 17488 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arlen
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I hope that notice is taken concerning the Douglas County, Colorado New Year's Eve fatal shooting of the police officer, that two civilians were also shot. They were in different apartments sleeping in their beds. And these were not adjoining apartments. The penetration of AR ammo is a serious hazard to those outside of a home where the shooting takes place. Please consider this whenever thinking of an AR as a home defense weapon. It is my opinion that they are not a good tool for home defense.


Regards,
arlen

======================
Some days, it's just not worth the effort of chewing through the leather straps.
======================
 
Posts: 325 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of RichardC
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Arlen, what AR rounds were they using? How many shots were fired?


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Posts: 9331 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That rug really tied
the room together.
Picture of bubbatime
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Arlen,

I would hazard a guess that I know FAR more about ballistics, projectiles, home defense tactics, etc than the vast majority of folks, even people that think they know what they are talking about. The other guy you are arguing with has made some very valid points, with very correct assertions. While almost everything you have posted sounds good to you, but is littered with bad info and fallacies.

Buckshot AND pistol rounds will travel farther through building materials than a proper .223 round. Proper being a ballistic/polymer tip or similar.

And while a person could certainly defend their home with a pistol, I have zero doubt that same person armed with a long gun will be 500% more effective.

The self-loading rifle in .223 caliber loaded with 30 rd mags is the cream of the crop home defense weapon for good reason. Why? Home defense, when you get down to brass tacks, IS armed conflict. Would a soldier going into armed conflict choose a pistol willingly? NO! He'd be a fucking idiot to choose a pistol over a rifle.

SWAT officers enter into armed conflict regularly. Do they choose a pistol? NO! Why? Because the rifle gives them the best chance of survival, it is more accurate, more lethal, more powerful, and reduces the chance of collateral damage BECAUSE it is more accurate.

Go use a pistol of you want. The people that UNDERSTAND ballistics and armed conflict will choose something else if they have time to do so. Also, how does your pistol do against home invaders wearing soft body armor? Because from personal experience, half of the home invaders I came into contact with in my career were wearing soft body armor. A .223 rifle doesn't care about soft body armor and eats it for breakfast.


______________________________________________________
Often times a very small man can cast a very large shadow
 
Posts: 4309 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My main house defense is an AR15. It was chosen for several reasons.

1) firepower, 30 rounds bests anything any pistol can, and shotgun is a joke, really best it can do is what 6 or 8 rounds.

2) ability to take the "badguy" out of the fight the fastest, faster than any pistol round, and most shotgun rounds.

3) the least, read that again LEAST likely to over penetrate walls and be a danger on the other side. Ever pistol round that is worth using for self defense will go through more walls with more energy to be of real danger on the other side. Same with shotgun, 00 or 000 buck, the only good choices for serious self defense will penetrate walls and be of more danger.

Many police departments have tested and proved it to be true, that's why most use an AR type rifle over sub guns, more knock down power, better armor penetration yet less of a chance of an errant round causing damage/death.

Even the lightest pistol bullet useful for self defense is heaver than the heaviest 5.56 bullet. Weight equals retained energy.

The right choice in A 5.56 bullet will give you good penetration on badguys even wearing armor, yet minimalize over penetration and damage/death.

A favorite round of mine is the Speer GoldDot 64gr GDSP, #24448.

4) quicker follow-up shots, even people with minimal training can shoot a 5.56 AR 15 faster and more accurately then any pistol and definitely any shotgun.

I have trained with the Remington 870 riot shotgun, I was required in a past life/job to quantify with it. I was always one of the top shooters, and I will tell you that it was/is much harder to run fast and keep it running (load ammo in it) than any AR 15.

The shotguns low ammo capacity, and even practiced and skilled "operator" would be hard pressed to keep up with even a minimally trained person with an AR 15. Don't believe me? Run some tests, get them out on the range and run drills. After, you will probably never touch a shotgun again.

5) the AR 15 is probably lighter than any shotgun, which means easier one hand operations if needed.

6) faster reloads, and you have 20 or 30 more rounds on tap, plus if it's has really gone south, able to change ammo types much faster and on the fly. Plus able to keep a fully loaded weapon easier, lull in the fighting, drop partially loaded magazine, install fully loaded magazine faster than you read that.

What is needed in a home defense AR 15? Well, the more basic the better, a 16" barrel M4 or pencil weight barrel, midlength gas system is better, lower recoil impulse with a standard A2 front sight base, a Daniel Defense A1.5 rear sight and a nice red dot, like an Aimpoint. A flashlight and a two point sling. Think of the sling as a holster.

Standard or MagPul MOE handguard, and a G.I. type trigger. That is all that is needed, this is my main house defense AR 15.

I will say, it's best to learn the iron sights first. Without any red dot mounted.

You don't have to be a forcerecondeltasealforcenninja operator to be able to be reasonable proficient.


ARman
 
Posts: 1935 | Registered: May 19, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Smarter than the
average bear
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bubbatime:
Arlen,

I would hazard a guess that I know FAR more about ballistics, projectiles, home defense tactics, etc than the vast majority of folks, even people that think they know what they are talking about. The other guy you are arguing with has made some very valid points, with very correct assertions. While almost everything you have posted sounds good to you, but is littered with bad info and fallacies.

Buckshot AND pistol rounds will travel farther through building materials than a proper .223 round. Proper being a ballistic/polymer tip or similar.

And while a person could certainly defend their home with a pistol, I have zero doubt that same person armed with a long gun will be 500% more effective.

The self-loading rifle in .223 caliber loaded with 30 rd mags is the cream of the crop home defense weapon for good reason. Why? Home defense, when you get down to brass tacks, IS armed conflict. Would a soldier going into armed conflict choose a pistol willingly? NO! He'd be a fucking idiot to choose a pistol over a rifle.

SWAT officers enter into armed conflict regularly. Do they choose a pistol? NO! Why? Because the rifle gives them the best chance of survival, it is more accurate, more lethal, more powerful, and reduces the chance of collateral damage BECAUSE it is more accurate.

Go use a pistol of you want. The people that UNDERSTAND ballistics and armed conflict will choose something else if they have time to do so. Also, how does your pistol do against home invaders wearing soft body armor? Because from personal experience, half of the home invaders I came into contact with in my career were wearing soft body armor. A .223 rifle doesn't care about soft body armor and eats it for breakfast.


Can you explain the apparent conflict in your statements which I've highlighted? How can a .223 offer less penetration through sheetrock, yet be much more effective against body armor?

I agree with your other points, but I am confused about the effectiveness of the same round against body armor.
 
Posts: 2319 | Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana | Registered: June 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Velocity will penetrate armor soft and some hard. The 5.56 has velocity.

That same velocity also tends to fragment most bullets, less mass, less energy. Less energy, the less momentum and less distance after exiting. With the less energy the bullet has less chance of causing damage/death.

ARman
 
Posts: 1935 | Registered: May 19, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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