quote:

Originally posted by arlen:
I hope that notice is taken concerning the Douglas County, Colorado New Year's Eve fatal shooting of the police officer, that two civilians were also shot. They were in different apartments sleeping in their beds.

The information I can find at the moment indicates that the bystanders (to call them by a generic term) were hit by the criminal subject’s gunfire and that he used a rifle (with no further information about that). He also reportedly fired some 100 shots. So, do you have other information about the weapons and ammunition used? Can you provide a link?

FWIW, I was discussing the above incident with my primary shooting partner yesterday, and my speculation based on what I do know thus far was that there was a group of officers in the apartment, the criminal subject retrieved a gun from another room, and then came out firing a large number of rapid shots. Except for the officer who died, everyone else evidently left the apartment very quickly, and there was apparently no effective return fire. In addition, there was evidently no effective effort made to evacuate the deputy who was killed until after the SWAT team killed the subject.

If I’m correct in my speculation about what happened, and to speculate a little more that the rifle was an AR type or something else chambered for 223/5.56, it’s actually remarkable that only two people in adjacent apartments were hit in the initial fusillade—unless, of course, the bullets from the subject’s rifle didn’t penetrate all that far through building materials.

And thanks, bubbatime, and the others who tried to explain a few things about terminal ballistics; as one member here says, “I can explain it for you, but I can’t understand it for you.”

For the record, I'm not disagreeing with the points made about handgun penetration through building materials. And obviously a 9mm will not penetrate soft body armor. And I understand that a light fast bullet is likely to fragment upon impact. My only question, and it is sincerely a question, is whether the same bullet that will easily penetrate soft body armor will fragment on sheetrock.

Obviously a bonded .223 round will have no trouble with soft armor. But it will also have little trouble with sheetrock. Will a bonded .223 penetrate less than a slower heavier 9mm?

And a .223 ballistic tip 55 gr projectile is very likely to fragment severely on most any impact, and I have little trouble believing it will penetrate less than a typical 9mm round through sheetrock. BUT, will it have no trouble with soft armor?

Sooo would Honady 55 gr FTX Critical Defense, item # 80270, be a good choice for HD?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...se-rifle-ammunition/

quote:

Originally posted by arlen:
I think that the shotgun is too long to wield at night whenever encountering an intruder. And so is the SBR AR.

The handgun is the way to go. Then choose the ammo wisely.

Malarky.


Choosing an inferior performer for a role because of the boogieman of overpenetration, why not just use pepper spray then?

If you have a firearm to defend your home, it is prudent to have the most capable firearm. Handguns suck, we only carry them because we can carry them out in public and because they are light weight.

By very definition, you don't have to carry a HD gun around much at all, and you don't need to conceal it on your person.

A rifle or a shotgun will stop an intruder with bad intentions far better than any handgun round. They are also easier to shoot well under stress, or by people who are small or weak.

Handguns are the most difficult to shoot well, their ballistic performance is far inferior to that of a rifle, rifles have higher capacity.

Furthermore, your initial premise itself is flawed. Handgun bullets retain energy well and penetrate sheetrock well. Rifle bullets, depending on construction, generally start to break apart upon initial contact with anything substantial at the type of distances that you would see in a HD scenario.



You might as well ride a bicycle everywhere because you are worried about hitting someone with your car.

V-Tail,

Great thread. This is been quite informative and it's been a treat to follow your journey. I'm in a somewhat similar boat, having recently picked up the last of the parts for my first AR build. I look forward to completing mine in the next few weeks (I hope) and to seeing pictures of your rifle when it's done.

Good Afternoon! I just stumbled back onto the forum, but never received an email back from you and my earlier post.

I've added the email listed in your profile to my contact list, but I didn't find anything in the junk/spam folder.

What are you missing and or still need to get fully suited up? Do you have a sling? Optic? Magazines?

And pardon my ignorance, but do you have any pictures of it thus far?

quote:

Originally posted by tlbailey1:
Good Afternoon! I just stumbled back onto the forum, but never received an email back from you and my earlier post.

I've added the email listed in your profile to my contact list, but I didn't find anything in the junk/spam folder.

What are you missing and or still need to get fully suited up? Do you have a sling? Optic? Magazines?

And pardon my ignorance, but do you have any pictures of it thus far?

Email sent.

I fired an M16A1 a grand total of once for qualification while in the Navy. The Navy-issued rifle for a boarding party was (and still is if I'm not mistaken) an M14. They wanted a group of Navy guys to augment the Marine Security Force in case of a big emergency or something at the time at NAS Jacksonville, FL. I can't remember exactly. I like to shoot, so when they asked for a few guys to go shoot the 1911 and the M16, I raised my hand. The big emergency never took place. I sort of became un-interested in ARs after getting out. Then the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 came along, and I ended up wanting one, and learning how to work on one, since it seemed like the government was getting ready to tell me I couldn't have one. I got a Bushmaster HBAR 20". Since then, I have had several dozen pass through my hands. I have built several, and bought several more complete, and I have narrowed it down to brands and features that I prefer. They are fine rifles for what they are designed for - incapacitating someone inside of 200 yards. The ones I have now make that M16A1 I fired years ago seem like a Brown Bess musket! Somebody said a while back that the Colt 6920 is the modern-day "musket." Everybody ought to own at least one. I happen to agree.

quote:

Originally posted by arlen:
I would not use an AR for home defense if I lived in the city. The round goes through walls and continues to travel. I would stick with a handgun or shotgun so that I would not cause harm to my neighbors.

ARLEN, PLEASE TAKE THIS DISCUSSION TO IT'S ON THREAD. What you are discussing has NOTHING to do with OP'S questions.

Great thread, V-Tail. Fun to follow along.
I will throw out for your perusal that Diamondback sells AR uppers, and they are a Florida manufacturer. Yes, they are known for cheap handguns.
I did just what you're doing (assembled the lower myself, then added an already-built upper) for my first AR, using a Diamondback upper that was a Black Friday special deal too good to pass up at the time ($208 shipped, with BCG and charging handle).
It shoots well and has had no hiccups thus far. I learned a lot. Enough to know that I want to build more rifles as time goes on.
Good luck, and thanks for keeping us up to date with your journey!

Yes, great thread V Tail. I'm in the process right now of putting together a list of parts needed for my first build. Though I've handled and shot many AR's they have always been department owned. I finally decided I needed my own.

Time for an update. The do-it-yourself kit for the AR has been sitting on a shelf for almost a year and a half. Life, some medical problems, trying to run a business, all conspired to keep me from the important stuff, like the AR.

Finally, this past weekend, SIGforum member Edmond came by and said "Let's do it!" Edmond is Army captain, is very familiar with this rifle, and has assembled several lower receivers, so he knows what he is doing.

The job was almost finished when we ran into a minor roadblock. It seems that some manufacturers drill the hole for the grip screw all the way through the casting, and these use 1" length grip screws.

Other manufacturers, like Anderson, do not drill completely through, and these use 3/4" grip screws.

Yup, you guessed it: I have an Anderson lower, which requires a 3/4" screw, and a Palmetto parts kit, which includes a 1" grip screw. At first, we couldn't figure out what was wrong, so we stopped the project with just a little bit left to do. I got home, did a little internet research, and identified the problem.

There are a couple of AR-15 manufacturers in Apopka FL. The one closest to my house, maybe ten minutes, is Spike's Tactical. I stopped in there today while running errands and asked if they sell parts. Yup! I explained my problem and they gave me a 3/4" grip screw, no charge. They even threw in a lock washer and a free little zip-lock bag to hold everything!

I'll be back at the hangar tomorrow, I should be able to finish putting it together. My schedule is full for the rest of this week, but I should be able to get to the gun club next week, for the maiden voyage.

Once again, I want to thank dwd1985, Johhny3eagles, and Riley, for their respective karmas / gifts.

I'll update again when I have additional news to report.

Outstanding! Welcome to the 21st century, my friend. You are going to love it.

Next time we get together, let's try some optics! I'll bring a few.

Edmond told me you guys built the lower and that now you are in business.

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:

Next time we get together, let's try some optics! I'll bring a few.

How does next week look?

I also need to try the teensy weensy little Seecamp. I finally got some ammunition for it, that people in the Seecamp forum claim it won't choke on.

congrats glad to hear the update

Spikes is a good company and has treated me well. I have a M4LE from them that has been flawless and a pure joy to own and customize over the last 10 years.

OMG!!!
I kept clicking on links in this thread and couldn't figure out why every one of them was 404!

This thread is over 1.5 years old!

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
I'm a big fan of .300 blk, especially for home defense.

The only time I find 556 better than 300 blk is when you want to shoot 300 yards and beyond. I find that 300 blk is my round of choice for everything inside of that range.

Given that I rarely shoot beyond 300 yards...you see where I'm going here.

30 caliber bullet at 2,200 fps is a lot of "get off ma' lawn!"

I'd been wondering why no one had recommended 300AAC pistol for home defense ... much more maneuverable than a 16" anything and ... 308 holes make invisible souls

Everything but the stripped receiver at PSA, and of course ... free shipping!

This is a new link BTW ... Just in case you haven't gotten an upper yet!!!

https://palmettostatearmory.co...ave-pistol-kit1.html

Foe a single "just in case" rifle, I'd consider a lever action 44 mag. And have the revolver too.

quote:

Originally posted by Hamden106:
Foe a single "just in case" rifle, I'd consider a lever action 44 mag. And have the revolver too.

You didn't read this thread.

To the OP, glad to hear the train is back on the track. I can't wait for your first range report with the new rifle.