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I Know Absolutely Nothing About AR Rifles. Login/Join 
Plowing straight ahead come what may
Picture of Bisleyblackhawk
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by P250UA5:
I may have a few spare parts available depending on what/if you come up short anywhere in your build.
I have no idea what I'll need, but if I do need anything, I will consider partial payment towards a BMW motorcycle. Wink

Current status: I have received the lower with the stripped hole for the pistol grip, from dwd1985. Preliminary assessment, bearing in mind that I am NOT a metalworker, indicates that I'll need a 17/64" drill bit to clean out the hole and prep it for a helicoil so that an original size 1/4" 28 pitch machine screw can be used, as AR intended, for the pistol grip.

Forum member Riley emailed me today, indicating that the lower parts kit that he is donating to the project should arrive at my box at The UPS Store in Apopka this coming Monday.

I did stop in at Spike's Tactical, a bit far for me to walk, but easy bicycle distance if I chose to travel that way, to inquire about upper assemblies. Their lowest cost entry level upper is in the neighborhood of six hundred bucks, plus 6.5% Florida sales tax, so I don't thing that's going to happen. Of course there's a lottery drawing tonight, so you never know. Wink

Several of you have mentioned Palmetto State Armory. I looked at the website and I see that their upper assemblies start around $250 and go up from there.

We'll take it one step at a time, and I'll continue to post here with progress reports, and the inevitable questions.


This...from IndianaBoy's post...

http://palmettostatearmory.com...cg-ch-516445358.html

Or this...

http://palmettostatearmory.com...daily-deals-new.html

While this is maybe 2" longer than the 16" "recommended" length for a "home defense" weapon (who gives a shit...it's two freakin inches Wink )...it will be shipped to your doorstep free at a great price and will allow flashlights, lasers, chainsaw bayonets and whatever to be attached...plus zero sales tax collected (at least here in TN) and is chambered in .223 Wylde (a big plus IMHO) and will fit up to any lower you build...plus, even though some forums will poo poo Palmetto State Armory as not up to "brand name" standards...I, and many others, have always been pleased with their offerings...just check their website from time to time for deals...

If you need additional parts, tools or pretty much anything to finish your build...shoot me an email...anything I have is yours free to use, shipped to you, just return it when you are finished using it Smile

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bisleyblackhawk,


********************************************************

"we've gotta roll with the punches, learn to play all of our hunches
Making the best of what ever comes our way
Forget that blind ambition and learn to trust your intuition
Plowing straight ahead come what may
And theres a cowboy in the jungle"
Jimmy Buffet
 
Posts: 7361 | Location: Southeast Tennessee...not far above my homestate Georgia | Registered: March 10, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bisleyblackhawk:
While this is maybe 2" longer than the 16" "recommended" length for a "home defense" weapon (who gives a shit...it's two freakin inches Wink )...it will be shipped to your doorstep free at a great price and will allow flashlights, lasers, chainsaw bayonets and whatever to be attached...plus zero sales tax collected (at least here in TN) and is chambered in .223 Wylde (a big plus IMHO) and will fit up to any lower you build...plus, even though some forums will poo poo Palmetto State Armory as not up to "brand name" standards...I, and many others, have always been pleased with their offerings...just check their website from time to time for deals.
Following the link that you supplied, there are two deals, both at $319.00 shipped, that are identical in all respects except for one detail: One has a keymod upper, the other has an m-lok upper.

What is the difference between keymod and m-lok? Why would I want one, as opposed to the other?



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 16288 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by Bisleyblackhawk:
While this is maybe 2" longer than the 16" "recommended" length for a "home defense" weapon (who gives a shit...it's two freakin inches Wink )...it will be shipped to your doorstep free at a great price and will allow flashlights, lasers, chainsaw bayonets and whatever to be attached...plus zero sales tax collected (at least here in TN) and is chambered in .223 Wylde (a big plus IMHO) and will fit up to any lower you build...plus, even though some forums will poo poo Palmetto State Armory as not up to "brand name" standards...I, and many others, have always been pleased with their offerings...just check their website from time to time for deals.
Following the link that you supplied, there are two deals, both at $319.00 shipped, that are identical in all respects except for one detail: One has a keymod upper, the other has an m-lok upper.

What is the difference between keymod and m-lok? Why would I want one, as opposed to the other?


Different method of attaching accessories. I only own keymod because the handguards I wanted at the time came in keymod.

Mlok is the stronger of the two though, and if I were going to make a wager I think Mlok will become more common as time goes on.

I have had no problems with my keymod gear but if all else is equal I would suggest you go with mlok.
 
Posts: 12782 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Plowing straight ahead come what may
Picture of Bisleyblackhawk
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I also have both...I prefer the M-Lok. Like Indianaboy...the only KeyMod I own is because the M-Lok handguard was out of stock...it's mounted on an optics only rifle that will probably never see any add-ons except the QD sling mount that I already had in KeyMod.

KeyMod sorta looks like adjustable industrial shelving which some people don't care for...I couldn't care less about looks so I have no issues with that...I think they look just fine...



M-Lok is just elongated slots...I just like the way accessories mount on M-Lok better...



M-Lok particulars explained below...

https://www.magpul.com/Admin/P...fM-LOK_2015_FAQs.pdf


********************************************************

"we've gotta roll with the punches, learn to play all of our hunches
Making the best of what ever comes our way
Forget that blind ambition and learn to trust your intuition
Plowing straight ahead come what may
And theres a cowboy in the jungle"
Jimmy Buffet
 
Posts: 7361 | Location: Southeast Tennessee...not far above my homestate Georgia | Registered: March 10, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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OK, so it looks like the .223 Wylde with M-LOK.

Next question: order it now, or wait?

Does anybody recall whether Palmetto State has had Black Friday savings in the past?



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 16288 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Administrator
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
OK, so it looks like the .223 Wylde with M-LOK.

Next question: order it now, or wait?

Does anybody recall whether Palmetto State has had Black Friday savings in the past?


Given the current state of the AR market, they undoubtedly will have such an event. Even if they don't, someone else like AIM will.
 
Posts: 17109 | Registered: August 12, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bolt Thrower
Picture of Voshterkoff
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Surefire.com has a 30% off code "allthelumens." A G2X Tactical and a m-lok ring mount from Ariska would be my budget recommendation. https://arisakadefense.com/pro...ine-ring-mount-m-lok They also have a holiday sale at the moment.
 
Posts: 7760 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ARMT Guy:
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:

I have never even fondled an AR, much less shot one.
Eek Where on earth do you people come from?! Razz
I guess I have led a sheltered life.

My military time was in 1956 to 1962 (four years regular Navy followed by two years USNR). That was WAY before this type rifle was around. Then, maybe seven or eight years ago, I got involved with handguns, never had a rifle, never touched one after Navy boot camp. Did not have interest, since I was so severely cross-domininant (right hand, left eye) that I really could not shoot a long gun. Then, year ago, I had cataract surgery which included lens implants and my right eye is now way more functional than it has ever been in my entire life, so shooting a rifle should work for me now.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 16288 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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Voshterkoff: Thanks for the tip on the light. I’ll look into it.

Once again, I would like to thank dwd1985 and Johhny3Eagles for getting me started.

The gentleman who runs the aircraft maintenance facility in the hangar opposite mine is a firearms guy. He took a look at the mounting hole for the pistol grip in the naked lower and said that he has everything he needs to restore the original spec thread: drill press, 17/64" bit, and helicoils for the 1/4" 28-pitch machine screw that mounts the pistol grip. He also is highly experienced in that sort of repair, so what might be a daunting job for me will likely be trivial for him.

Riley: I received your package in the mail today. A box o’ parts! Thank you. But dude, you forgot to put the instruction sheet in there, so my education needs to start.

We all learn differently. I do better reading, than I do watching videos, so a good book is much better for me than youtube. CD228 mentioned this one by Chris Bartocci.

While poking around on Amazon, I found this one by Rob Reaser.

I might very well wind up with both of them, but I’m going to start with just one. Has anybody looked at both of them? Any words of wisdom re which one I should start with?



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 16288 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Honestly I love books, but I think they are overkill for assembling a lower. What I do is just pull up a text and photo based assembly doc from AR15.com or google it, and a youtube video. I consult them as needed as I'm assembling it. Even though I've done half a dozen, I still pull up the references so they are handy and take my time.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com...r-15-lower-receiver/




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 2786 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Strambo:
Honestly I love books, but I think they are overkill for assembling a lower. What I do is just pull up a text and photo based assembly doc from AR15.com or google it, and a youtube video. I consult them as needed as I'm assembling it. Even though I've done half a dozen, I still pull up the references so they are handy and take my time.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com...r-15-lower-receiver/
That makes it look REALLY simple!



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 16288 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of dwd1985
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
Voshterkoff: Thanks for the tip on the light. I’ll look into it.

Once again, I would like to thank dwd1985 and Johhny3Eagles for getting me started.


You are welcome. I am watching how this thread develops, and I’m excited for you to have your first AR.



 
Posts: 3257 | Registered: October 28, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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.............and we will need progress pics for all this free advise........ Big Grin
 
Posts: 406 | Location: Colorado | Registered: October 11, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Great!

ITS lower build. https://www.itstactical.com/series/diy-ar-15-build/

Midway.com upper assembly
https://www.midwayusa.com/gene...to-build-ar-15-rifle




Looking for an Alaskan Malamute? Look here: http://www.moonsongmals.org
Do not send me to a heaven where there are no dogs.
Step Up or Stand Aside: Support the Troops !
 
Posts: 6610 | Location: West | Registered: November 26, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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As inexpensive as Palmetto Freedom kits are right now, I wouldn't expect big things for black friday. But that is just me. I would order now and get your stuff shipped before the big rush.
 
Posts: 12782 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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I have a couple questions:
  1. The Palmetto State Armory upper assembly that has been recommended with Wylde chamber 18" barrel is looking like the most cost-effective way to go. The description says "rifle length gas tube." OK, I understand that there are different lengths for gas tubes, including carbine length and mid-length. My question: Is there any inherent advantage in a longer or shorter length? My gut tells me no, the gas tube length is probably associated with the barrel length, but then again, as I have said, I have absolutely no knowledge about AR rifles other than what I have picked up here on this site.

  2. This one might belong in the Ammunition section of the forum, but I'd like to keep my questions all in one place for easy reference. How about the cheaper Russian steel case stuff, vs. brass case. Increased wear on the feed ramp, plus maybe more likelihood of extractor damage with steel case? Is this a wive's tale, or is it real? If real, would the difference show up in the relatively low number of rounds that I will fire, or would it be more likely to show after many, many, thousands of rounds? Until the end of the year, Federal's rebate will make the cost of brass only a couple cents more than the steel, with the additional advantage that I would have once-fired brass if I ever decided to load this caliber (probably not worth it, for the amount that I would shoot, to buy all the additional stuff for my press, but I could maybe trade for 9mm or .45 ACP brass).
There will be more questions as I think of them. Photos will come, per request. I guess my next step will be the class this coming Saturday at Florida Gun Exchange in Ormond. Anybody from the Orlando area want to car pool with me? NOTE: Florida Gun Exchange is just down the street from DB Pickles, in case you need a great pastrami on rye. I'll be going there for lunch before the class.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 16288 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Plowing straight ahead come what may
Picture of Bisleyblackhawk
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Short answer to #1 is somewhat explained here...

https://www.at3tactical.com/bl...-to-ar15-gas-systems

As a general rule the longer the gas system...the less harsh the operation of everything involved in firing a round...I can feel a difference (small, but noticeable)...my mid-length rifles seem to be smoother than my carbine length rifles (my brother noticed this too when he shot my mid-length after shooting his carbine length AR).

I do not have an AR with a rifle length gas system, but I have shot them enough to say they had the least perceived recoil (not that a .223/.556 is heavy...again "smoother" is a better description) of the three lengths.

On the ammo question...I have one rifle (16" mid-length stainless steel PSA upper) that has about 3000 (more or less) rounds of Wolf 55 grain steel case stuff fired through it, and other being dirty as hell, it shows no ill effects. I don't just go out with 10-15 30 round loaded magazines and run through them as fast as possible till the gas tube glows red hot...which is hard on everything. On the steel case stuff, I don't really think it's the case that is the issue, the bullets are a copper plate over mild steel jacket over a lead core and if a lot of rounds are quickly fired, the steel/copper jacket bullet is hard on a almost red hot barrel (ARs can get HOT quick if Rambo'ed Eek )...my brother has a 10 year old Bushmaster that has fired nothing but Russian steel case ammo in its life and still rings the 8" gong at 100 yards set up on his property.

That being said, in my other three rifles and AR pistol I just use various and sundry brass cased ammo with the brass saved and processed to reload...I have been using the American Eagle .223 I bought w/ rebate as well as Wolf Gold brass case ammo...both are great.

The Wolf Gold is from what I understand, is surplus Taiwanese M193 military ammo...I've bought a couple of cases from TargetSport...

https://www.targetsportsusa.co...fmj-wg59-p-4316.aspx

One other thing you will need will be magazines...there are a bunch to choose from...plastic ones such as the Magpul Pmags (sort of the standard for plastic magazines)...plastic/steel hybrids like the Lancer magazines (my favorite because they are a molded from a transparent plastic okay, Polymer Wink) which allows an easy view of the rounds and they have steel feed lips. They also offer the same magazines molded with a non-transparent polymer which doesn't let you view the loaded rounds. Lancers run about $15 to $18 each online.

Lately I have been ordering these GI 30 round aluminum magazines...they are tough and have good springs and followers for dependable feeding. They are just your standard military contract magazines...nothing fancy...new unissued magazines for under $10 each shipped which is a bargain IMHO...Okay Industries has been making GI AR magazines for many years and have a good track record...

http://www.44mag.com/product/o...d/223_ar15_magazines


********************************************************

"we've gotta roll with the punches, learn to play all of our hunches
Making the best of what ever comes our way
Forget that blind ambition and learn to trust your intuition
Plowing straight ahead come what may
And theres a cowboy in the jungle"
Jimmy Buffet
 
Posts: 7361 | Location: Southeast Tennessee...not far above my homestate Georgia | Registered: March 10, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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1.

Rifle length is optimal for an 18" barrel.

Mid for a 16". Mid or carbine for a 14.5, depending on a variety of factors.


2.

Bimetal bullets will cause slightly more barrel wear over time. The cost savings of wolf more than pay for new barrels. Steel cases are mild steel, and barely harder than brass.

I recommend Wolf Gold as general purpose ammo.
 
Posts: 12782 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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Thanks for the response, Bisley.

I stared at your post for a while, trying to think it through -- why should a longer gas tube affect recoil, and I came up with an alternate theory, which might or might not hold water.

Isn't it the case that a longer gas tube would likely be associated with a longer barrel? Longer barrel means more weight. More weight means less perceived recoil. Sort of like the difference between firing .357 magnum round from a 686, vs. firing the same round from a lightweight J-frame. Or am I going down the wrong track here?



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 16288 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Plowing straight ahead come what may
Picture of Bisleyblackhawk
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
Thanks for the response, Bisley.

I stared at your post for a while, trying to think it through -- why should a longer gas tube affect recoil, and I came up with an alternate theory, which might or might not hold water.

Isn't it the case that a longer gas tube would likely be associated with a longer barrel? Longer barrel means more weight. More weight means less perceived recoil. Sort of like the difference between firing .357 magnum round from a 686, vs. firing the same round from a lightweight J-frame. Or am I going down the wrong track here?


This might explain it a little better than I can...

http://apdmarksmanshipteam.org...ing-ar15-gas-system/

"Imagine yourself at a match. You’ve loaded a magazine and charged your rifle. You’re standing in the start box, give a nod and hear the beeeeep of the timer. On your first shot, you’re thinking about how your sight picture looked, finding the next target and then starting the trigger squeeze for the next shot. But in that split second between shots, there’s a lot happening inside the rifle.

When you fired that first shot of the match the brass case you loaded expanded against the sides of the chamber, holding it in place. Gas pressure built up inside the case and propelled the bullet down the barrel. In the top of your barrel is a hole called the gas port and the gas port is covered by either a low profile gas block (typically found under free float rails) or a fixed front sight post (more common in military type ARs). As the bullet passed the gas port, the gas tried to escape the barrel through the path of least resistance (through the gas block, down the gas tube and into the action).

The gas pressure flowed down the gas tube and into the gas key on top of your bolt carrier group. This caused the bolt carrier group to start unlocking from the chamber and moving backward. The bolt pulled the now-empty case from the chamber and ejected it as the bolt moved backward passed the ejection port.

As the bolt carrier group slowed down and cycled forward again, it stripped a round off of the top of the magazine and chambered it for your next shot.

So now that you know what happened when you pulled the trigger, you can better understand how all of the parts of the system work together.

As you can imagine, the closer the gas port is to the chamber, the higher the gas pressure is going to be as the gas flows through the port into the bolt carrier group (BCG). Common gas systems are referred to as (from shortest to longest) carbine, mid, intermediate and rifle lengths. The chamber pressure on a carbine gas system and a 16″ barrel can average around 25,000psi while a rifle gas system on an 18″ barrel can average around only 17,000psi, a reduction of over 30% in pressure. All of that extra pressure can stress the parts of your BCG and cause premature bolt failures, among other problems.

The “dwell time” is the amount of time the BCG is receiving gas pressure and is determined by the length of barrel between the gas port and the muzzle. This measurement can effect the reliability and shootability because it also determines how much gas is fed to the action.

The most common type of gas system for competitive shooting is an 18″ barrel with rifle length gas. It’s reputation for being so smooth shooting comes from a larger distance between the chamber and gas port and a shorter distance from the gas port to the muzzle. This combination has proved to have enough gas pressure to be extremely reliable, but not so much that the recoil is disruptive to your sight picture. 16″ barrels with mid-length gas, when ported correctly, can be very reliable but still useful in a competitive setting. This is probably the ideal combo for a patrol officer wanting a “jack-of-all-trades” rifle for work and competition. For matches with short range, fast shooting I think you’ll start to see more 14.5″ barrels with mid-length gas being used in competition. I’ve had the opportunity to shoot a BCM 14.5″ mid-length upper and with an H2 buffer this set up is incredibly soft shooting and easy to keep on target."


********************************************************

"we've gotta roll with the punches, learn to play all of our hunches
Making the best of what ever comes our way
Forget that blind ambition and learn to trust your intuition
Plowing straight ahead come what may
And theres a cowboy in the jungle"
Jimmy Buffet
 
Posts: 7361 | Location: Southeast Tennessee...not far above my homestate Georgia | Registered: March 10, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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