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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:
quote:
Originally posted by GJM AK:
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:

Yup, the buffalo bore 147g +P hardcast sort of changes things a bit. A guide on the Alaska Peninsula recently dropped a charging grizzly with his 9mm using that ammo.



My thoughts exactly. Where do you live? I live near the top of the Alaska Peninsula.
Already covered. Read above.

quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:

I read an interview and he said that he was glad he had his 9mm because he felt certain he wouldnt have been able to make as many accurate follow up shots with his 44 mag.


Of course, he wouldn't have needed to.

quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:

This guy isnt a run of the mill guide either, hes been guiding the becharof for over 30 years, hes a bush pilot and he is highly respected in this part of the state of Alaska.


You don't really think that being a pilot has anything to do with the topic whatsoever, do you?

I don't think the bear cared much about his reputation, either.

quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:
he still carries a 9mm after this incident.


But, of course. It's his lucky pistol.

Do you feel that lucky?


Just out of curiosity, how many bears have you shot while hunting or in self defense? Can you give us some background on your experience with bears, and how that prepares you to offer up the opinions you have?

Phil Shoemaker, living, flying and bear guiding on the AK Peninsula, has forgotten more about large grizzly bears than nearly everyone on the internet knows combined (only a slight exaggeration). I live in AK, am around grizzly bears daily, have killed three grizzly bears, two hunting and one in self defense. I was charged by a grizzly in July, that turned at 25 yards, and I did not have to shoot. Bush pilots get lots of experience with bears, because bears hang around in the "bush," and that is where bush pilots fly.


I may have a few decades more flying the bush than you, but need we really measure dicks?

The guy got lucky. His standard firearm for guiding is and was a .44 Magnum. He failed to drop the bear. It ran, then died. He was down to one cartridge and stated at the time that he wasnt willing to go in to check the bear, as he has one round and it was just 9mm. The bear wasn't charging him. He's got a lot more experience close to bears than most anyone else reading this, and his chances of dropping a bear wit a limited capacity 9mm, far better than most here. His being a pilot had nothing to do with it, something I do know a great deal about. You?

If you feel lucky, take the damn 9mm up against a bear. Phil was maybe you, too. Good luck.
 
Posts: 1314 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:
quote:
Originally posted by GJM AK:
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:

Yup, the buffalo bore 147g +P hardcast sort of changes things a bit. A guide on the Alaska Peninsula recently dropped a charging grizzly with his 9mm using that ammo.



My thoughts exactly. Where do you live? I live near the top of the Alaska Peninsula.
Already covered. Read above.

quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:

I read an interview and he said that he was glad he had his 9mm because he felt certain he wouldnt have been able to make as many accurate follow up shots with his 44 mag.


Of course, he wouldn't have needed to.

quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:

This guy isnt a run of the mill guide either, hes been guiding the becharof for over 30 years, hes a bush pilot and he is highly respected in this part of the state of Alaska.


You don't really think that being a pilot has anything to do with the topic whatsoever, do you?

I don't think the bear cared much about his reputation, either.

quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:
he still carries a 9mm after this incident.


But, of course. It's his lucky pistol.

Do you feel that lucky?


Just out of curiosity, how many bears have you shot while hunting or in self defense? Can you give us some background on your experience with bears, and how that prepares you to offer up the opinions you have?

Phil Shoemaker, living, flying and bear guiding on the AK Peninsula, has forgotten more about large grizzly bears than nearly everyone on the internet knows combined (only a slight exaggeration). I live in AK, am around grizzly bears daily, have killed three grizzly bears, two hunting and one in self defense. I was charged by a grizzly in July, that turned at 25 yards, and I did not have to shoot. Bush pilots get lots of experience with bears, because bears hang around in the "bush," and that is where bush pilots fly.


I may have a few decades more flying the bush than you, but need we really measure dicks?

The guy got lucky. His standard firearm for guiding is and was a .44 Magnum. He failed to drop the bear. It ran, then died. He was down to one cartridge and stated at the time that he wasnt willing to go in to check the bear, as he has one round and it was just 9mm. The bear wasn't charging him. He's got a lot more experience close to bears than most anyone else reading this, and his chances of dropping a bear wit a limited capacity 9mm, far better than most here. His being a pilot had nothing to do with it, something I do know a great deal about. You?

If you feel lucky, take the damn 9mm up against a bear. Phil was maybe you, too. Good luck.


His normal carry is a 9mm or sometimes a 357. It was a 44 before but dosent seem to be now. If being a a pilot dosent mean anything then why are you bragging about being one?
 
Posts: 4262 | Location: Alaska | Registered: June 12, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A day late, and
a dollar short
Picture of Warhorse
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In handguns I prefer a .44 Magnum for black bear defense. I did carry my S&W 329PD while deer hunting, hiking/camping in northern MI. Very easy to carry all day long due to its light weight.


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Posts: 10511 | Location: MI | Registered: July 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Glock 20. 16 rounds of 10mm is hard to beat.
 
Posts: 427 | Registered: February 25, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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OP, as I recall, asked about what handgun to go along with his shotgun, for black bears and mountain lions in AZ, not what handgun as primary for brown bears on the AK Peninsula.
 
Posts: 84 | Registered: September 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:

His normal carry is a 9mm or sometimes a 357. It was a 44 before but dosent seem to be now. If being a a pilot dosent mean anything then why are you bragging about being one?


I'm not bragging about being an aviator. You've mentioned several times, his being a pilot, as if it had any relevance whatsoever, and it doesn't. Being a bush pilot has no relevance.

Being a guide that's been taking people into areas with high concentrations of bears for several decades is quite relevant. It's very important to understand that his feat is unique, and not one that most people could or should expect to duplicate. In fact, making the attempt for the vast majority of people, and carrying a 9mm into bear country, even with the god-killer buffalo bore 147 gn hard cast lead bullets, is patently stupid.

Even if they're pilots.
 
Posts: 1314 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Telecom Ronin
Picture of dewhorse
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Whatever you choose be sure you;

Always have it easily accessible.....
Can engage the target quickly and repeatedly

My woods pistols have varied ,for hog hunting I carried a GM 1911 woth +p bonded 230gr HP. But my favorite is my M29 MG worked over by Ten Ring, it is ported, has express type sites and a beautifully smooth double action. My edc load is 300gr Hornady, which has been reviewed very positivly by DrGR. I know that I can easily do panic dump into 8" at 7m......

If I was going into Brownie territory it would be loaded with a stout hardcast with a good meplat. Backed up with my Benelli loaded with black magics....again I know I can fire 4 shots quickly and accurately. Maybe once I get more practice my CZ550 in 416 Rigby.....it will have a 20" barrel soon.

A G20 is a damned fine choice as is a good 357mag in the lower 48. And a can of bear spray is a good idea as well,

I would feel just fine, and have,with my G17 loaded with a +p+ 127gr, sometimes you end up in the woods with what you started the day with. I also used to carried a Tula M44 in my truck for that same reason.

Also consider a Jframe with snake load as a secondary, I always carry one here in TX when in the woods......
Practice is the key.....even with spray
 
Posts: 6302 | Location: DFW is home but currently in PHX | Registered: February 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Not really from Vienna
Picture of arfmel
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:

His normal carry is a 9mm or sometimes a 357. It was a 44 before but dosent seem to be now. If being a a pilot dosent mean anything then why are you bragging about being one?


I'm not bragging about being an aviator. You've mentioned several times, his being a pilot, as if it had any relevance whatsoever, and it doesn't. Being a bush pilot has no relevance.

Being a guide that's been taking people into areas with high concentrations of bears for several decades is quite relevant. It's very important to understand that his feat is unique, and not one that most people could or should expect to duplicate. In fact, making the attempt for the vast majority of people, and carrying a 9mm into bear country, even with the god-killer buffalo bore 147 gn hard cast lead bullets, is patently stupid.

Even if they're pilots.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c


FWIW: I wouldn't pick a 9mm pistol for defense against bear attacks. 30 years ago I went to Alaska fishing and took a .44 Special with warmish hard cast SWC loads with me because that was the best thing I had available at the time.




 
Posts: 20762 | Location: Young American Teen Club | Registered: January 30, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:

His normal carry is a 9mm or sometimes a 357. It was a 44 before but dosent seem to be now. If being a a pilot dosent mean anything then why are you bragging about being one?


I'm not bragging about being an aviator. You've mentioned several times, his being a pilot, as if it had any relevance whatsoever, and it doesn't. Being a bush pilot has no relevance.

Being a guide that's been taking people into areas with high concentrations of bears for several decades is quite relevant. It's very important to understand that his feat is unique, and not one that most people could or should expect to duplicate. In fact, making the attempt for the vast majority of people, and carrying a 9mm into bear country, even with the god-killer buffalo bore 147 gn hard cast lead bullets, is patently stupid.

Even if they're pilots.


I wish I had a time machine, Id go back and never have mentioned him being a pilot, then I wouldnt have had to read any of your BS.
 
Posts: 4262 | Location: Alaska | Registered: June 12, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:


I wish I had a time machine, Id go back and never have mentioned him being a pilot, then I wouldnt have had to read any of your BS.


You could go back and edit it, but you've been quoted. Wish as you will, choose your words with more care, and don't defend the irrelevant.

If you have half a brain, don't choose a 9mm for bear defense unless you're mighty Phil.
 
Posts: 1314 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Not really from Vienna
Picture of arfmel
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by newmexican:


I wish I had a time machine, Id go back and never have mentioned him being a pilot, then I wouldnt have had to read any of your BS.


You could go back and edit it, but you've been quoted. Wish as you will, choose your words with more care, and don't defend the irrelevant.

If you have half a brain, don't choose a 9mm for bear defense unless you're mighty Phil.




Pot, meet kettle:

"A 9X19 isn't going to concern, or hurt a bear. Not in any meaningful way during the time you have an encounter."




 
Posts: 20762 | Location: Young American Teen Club | Registered: January 30, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
You could go back and edit it, but you've been quoted. Wish as you will, choose your words with more care, and don't defend the irrelevant.

If you have half a brain, don't choose a 9mm for bear defense unless you're mighty Phil.

From the linked thread on the other forum, Phil mentioned him being a bush pilot because many a time he had to shoo bears away from his plane so they could deplane or have access to it. He did post photos of him dealing with bears around his plane in the bush. He mentioned in that thread that he carry his 9mm quite a bit in the bush.

Anyway OP asked about black bears.
 
Posts: 1142 | Location: Round Rock TX | Registered: October 30, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by arfmel:
Pot, meet kettle:

"A 9X19 isn't going to concern, or hurt a bear. Not in any meaningful way during the time you have an encounter."


Quite right. Unless you're Phil, you're a bloody idiot if you carry a 9mm for bears, even if you carry nuclear hard cast lead Buffalo Bore 147 gn cartridges. Phil got lucky, ran out of ammunition, didnt stop the bear on site, wasnt willing to go check on the bear with his one, remaining cartridge, and is by far the exception to the rule. If you feel you're as good as him, if you feel as lucky as him, by all means, tote your mighty 9mm to a bear fight.

And no, being a pilot, even a brush pilot, has nothing to do with shooting a bear. Alaska, which is also irrelevant (or was until newmexican made it all about phil and his piloting in Alaska), used to require that a firearm was carried aboard. Most pilots flying the bavk country are neither firearm proficient, particularly knowedgable about wildlife, crack shots, trained to shoot under pressure, or capable. Phil was a guide, which most pilots are not, and Phil had nearly three decades experience guiding. He also did an exceptional job under stress shooting the bear, which was not attacking him.

To expect to down a bear with a 9mm is unrealistic. It's unwise, even idiotic, to recommend a 9mm to the vast majority of those seeking a firearm for bear protection, regardless of whether it's black, brown, kodiac, polar, or grizzly. Same for big cats.

There are those here who can do a magazine dump under stress into a 1" square and do it while all the brass is in the air. Maybe you could too. I couldnt. Maybe you might be lucky and duplicate Phil's success. You feel lucky?

In Arizona, 2 legged threats are a bigger reality than four legged ones. They come better armed, too. Plan accordingly.
 
Posts: 1314 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jazz Hands Ninja
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I'm not much of a Glock guy (They are uncomfortable from me to shoot with my girly hands), but a 10mm Glock seems to make the most sense . . .

Any other double stack 10mm's out there?





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Posts: 2908 | Location: Arizona | Registered: August 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I carry a security six 4" with Underwood 180gr. while in northern Michigan.
 
Posts: 5191 | Location: Ypsilanti Township | Registered: January 20, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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@ Amhaynie

You can pick up an EAA Witness Hunter. It's a CZ75 Knock-Off and costs about $1300.00.

If you don't like the Glock, I think a 1911 would be a good substitute. Not as high capacity as the Glock, but you still get 8+1 with significantly quicker reloads than with a revolver.

My woods gun is a Colt Delta Elite running Sig Elite Performance 180 grain 10mm fmj. Lays down 624 lb ft of energy, which should be enough to dispatch just about anything out there. Plus, the recoil is manageable for quick follow-up shots.


"Like a horse has its rider, and the sky has its moon, a man has his loneliness, mistaken as pride." -Longmire
 
Posts: 527 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: January 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jazz Hands Ninja
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Billy346:
@ Amhaynie

You can pick up an EAA Witness Hunter. It's a CZ75 Knock-Off and costs about $1300.00.

If you don't like the Glock, I think a 1911 would be a good substitute. Not as high capacity as the Glock, but you still get 8+1 with significantly quicker reloads than with a revolver.

My woods gun is a Colt Delta Elite running Sig Elite Performance 180 grain 10mm fmj. Lays down 624 lb ft of energy, which should be enough to dispatch just about anything out there. Plus, the recoil is manageable for quick follow-up shots.


I suppose a Sig P220 10mm Would be in that realm there too huh?? Decisions decisions





NRA Certified instructor:
Basic Rifle
Basic Pistol
Basic Shotgun
Home Firearm Safety
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Posts: 2908 | Location: Arizona | Registered: August 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by amhaynie:
I suppose a Sig P220 10mm Would be in that realm there too huh?? Decisions decisions


I'm partial to .41 magnum, and in fact just picked up a 4" Redhawk in .41. .41 is roughly comparable ballistically to 10mm, though 10mm is easier to carry, especially reload. Of course, 10mm has to be pushed to its limits to get significant muzzle energy, while a hot .41 will go faster with more muzzle energy in a more robust revolver. .45 Colt can be loaded hot in a Ruger, too.

If you've already got the 12 gauge, you've got your bear artillery. The service caliber handgun can be held in reserve for the polleros, narcos, and problem children in the back country. Even there, an AR would be better.
 
Posts: 1314 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jazz Hands Ninja
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by amhaynie:
I suppose a Sig P220 10mm Would be in that realm there too huh?? Decisions decisions


I'm partial to .41 magnum, and in fact just picked up a 4" Redhawk in .41. .41 is roughly comparable ballistically to 10mm, though 10mm is easier to carry, especially reload. Of course, 10mm has to be pushed to its limits to get significant muzzle energy, while a hot .41 will go faster with more muzzle energy in a more robust revolver. .45 Colt can be loaded hot in a Ruger, too.

If you've already got the 12 gauge, you've got your bear artillery. The service caliber handgun can be held in reserve for the polleros, narcos, and problem children in the back country. Even there, an AR would be better.


I usually have my AR, Shotgun and a Pistol, Just wanting to beef up the pistol a little





NRA Certified instructor:
Basic Rifle
Basic Pistol
Basic Shotgun
Home Firearm Safety
Personal Protection In The Home
Certified NRA Range Safety officer

Upper Hand Defense LLC
upperhanddefense.com
facebook.com/Upperhanddefense
 
Posts: 2908 | Location: Arizona | Registered: August 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by amhaynie:
I usually have my AR, Shotgun and a Pistol, Just wanting to beef up the pistol a little


If you're like me, I find reasons to buy a new firearm. A 10mm P220 would be really tempting. I'd stick with standard pressure in it, though.

A compromise might be a P226 in .357 Sig or a P320 for that matter, especially given that you're more likely to need that pistol for people than animals. It wouldnt have the whomp of a .44, but it would have a bit more versatility.
 
Posts: 1314 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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