quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
A 9X19 isn't going to concern, or hurt a bear.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:
Guess this grizzly didn't know a 9mm wasn't lethal to bears:

https://www.americanhunter.org...zly-with-9mm-pistol/

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
A 9X19 isn't going to concern, or hurt a bear. Not in any meaningful way during the time you have an encounter. You might piss it off a bit, but rest assured you'll be more impressed with the 9mm than the bear.

You're better off with bear spray than a 9mm.

Don't count on scaring off a cat. If you happen to be startling the cat and it doesn't want to be seen, it will move away. They've also been known to double back or reposition and wait or you. They're ambush predators, and they don't face off.

Bears may move, or they may not. They usually don't feel inclined. The notion that they don't like being around people is incorrect. Often people attract them, often it's the scent of food, and not necessarily you. They're an apex predator, though, and you're not intimidating to them.

The old joke is that hikers are warned to wear bells to make themselves heard, so the animals know you're coming. Look for signs of the animals, particularly the bear scat. You know it's bear scat because it smells like pepper spray and it's full of little bells.

Pepper spray, a full size, formulated spray, is effective, though it's not going to stop a charging bear.

10mm, for the most part, not particularly effective. .44 magnum, marginally so. Bigger is better, and a 12 gauge rifled slug is a start. A lever gun or larger game rifle, better, but you're still not likely to be effective or see a rapid stop if attacked. This is particularly the case with grizzlys.

In Arizona, black bear are what you may encounter, and there are cats which you'll be very lucky to see. Bear aren't common. Black bear aren't known to attack, generally, and cat attacks are rare. The question is whether you're carrying to make yourself feel better, or the animal feel worse, and if the choice is 9mm or something of that nature, you're only making yourself feel better if you're carrying it for bear protection. You'll feel worse if you need to use it because it won't help.

Even in the woods, especially in some parts of AZ, two legged threats are a far bigger concern than cats or bears. In those cases, your favorite service caliber and firearm is a better choice...but those threats you encounter, particularly in the southern forests, are likely to be better armed than you are, and far less concerned about who they hurt to protect their cargo.

quote:

Originally posted by Cheyenne:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
A 9X19 isn't going to concern, or hurt a bear.

I beg to differ. After going through gyrations for decades, over the last couple of years I have gone to carrying my usual 9mm “on-pavement” guns, but switching the off-pavement ammo over to Buffalo Bore 147 grain +P Outdoorsman hard cast lead flat point. It will penetrate plenty deep enough to break stuff and leave a mark. (FYI. No grizzlies in my area, just black bears.)

Out of a Glock 19:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ursfz1Wg8hA

Out of a Glock 26:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sOM_3DIdNw

I only got 6 jugs of penetration out of a Glock 43, but I think that is because my aim was not precise enough.

In .45 ACP, the Buffalo Bore 255 grain +P hard cast flat point easily penetrates 10 jugs, but I have stopped carrying a Glock 30SF since the 9mm Outdoorsman round became readily available.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

Yup, the buffalo bore 147g +P hardcast sort of changes things a bit. A guide on the Alaska Peninsula recently dropped a charging grizzly with his 9mm using that ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

I read an interview and he said that he was glad he had his 9mm because he felt certain he wouldnt have been able to make as many accurate follow up shots with his 44 mag.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

This guy isnt a run of the mill guide either, hes been guiding the becharof for over 30 years, hes a bush pilot and he is highly respected in this part of the state of Alaska.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:
he still carries a 9mm after this incident.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

Yup, the buffalo bore 147g +P hardcast sort of changes things a bit. A guide on the Alaska Peninsula recently dropped a charging grizzly with his 9mm using that ammo.

Already covered. Read above.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

I read an interview and he said that he was glad he had his 9mm because he felt certain he wouldnt have been able to make as many accurate follow up shots with his 44 mag.

Of course, he wouldn't have needed to.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

This guy isnt a run of the mill guide either, hes been guiding the becharof for over 30 years, hes a bush pilot and he is highly respected in this part of the state of Alaska.

You don't really think that being a pilot has anything to do with the topic whatsoever, do you?

I don't think the bear cared much about his reputation, either.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:
he still carries a 9mm after this incident.

But, of course. It's his lucky pistol.

Do you feel that lucky?

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

Yup, the buffalo bore 147g +P hardcast sort of changes things a bit. A guide on the Alaska Peninsula recently dropped a charging grizzly with his 9mm using that ammo.

Already covered. Read above.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

I read an interview and he said that he was glad he had his 9mm because he felt certain he wouldnt have been able to make as many accurate follow up shots with his 44 mag.

Of course, he wouldn't have needed to.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

This guy isnt a run of the mill guide either, hes been guiding the becharof for over 30 years, hes a bush pilot and he is highly respected in this part of the state of Alaska.

You don't really think that being a pilot has anything to do with the topic whatsoever, do you?

I don't think the bear cared much about his reputation, either.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:
he still carries a 9mm after this incident.

But, of course. It's his lucky pistol.

Do you feel that lucky?

quote:

Originally posted by GJM AK:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

Yup, the buffalo bore 147g +P hardcast sort of changes things a bit. A guide on the Alaska Peninsula recently dropped a charging grizzly with his 9mm using that ammo.

My thoughts exactly. Where do you live? I live near the top of the Alaska Peninsula.
Already covered. Read above.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

I read an interview and he said that he was glad he had his 9mm because he felt certain he wouldnt have been able to make as many accurate follow up shots with his 44 mag.

Of course, he wouldn't have needed to.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:

This guy isnt a run of the mill guide either, hes been guiding the becharof for over 30 years, hes a bush pilot and he is highly respected in this part of the state of Alaska.

You don't really think that being a pilot has anything to do with the topic whatsoever, do you?

I don't think the bear cared much about his reputation, either.

quote:

Originally posted by newmexican:
he still carries a 9mm after this incident.

But, of course. It's his lucky pistol.

Do you feel that lucky?

Just out of curiosity, how many bears have you shot while hunting or in self defense? Can you give us some background on your experience with bears, and how that prepares you to offer up the opinions you have?

Phil Shoemaker, living, flying and bear guiding on the AK Peninsula, has forgotten more about large grizzly bears than nearly everyone on the internet knows combined (only a slight exaggeration). I live in AK, am around grizzly bears daily, have killed three grizzly bears, two hunting and one in self defense. I was charged by a grizzly in July, that turned at 25 yards, and I did not have to shoot. Bush pilots get lots of experience with bears, because bears hang around in the "bush," and that is where bush pilots fly.