quote:

Originally posted by Dallas239:
Again, that is the charter of Boy Scouts of America. Boy Scouts is merely one program from the Boy Scouts of America organization. If you believe this change violates the charter of Boy Scouts of America, then Boy Scouts of America has been violating it's charter for more than half a century.

Notably missing from the purpose you quoted is the word "only." The only restrictions on the BSA charter are not issuing stock or operating for profit. Also notable is that the BSA uses technology and techniques that did not exist in 1916.

I get that - the larger organization has programs that are co-ed. Got it, understand it. The change that has occurred is to the Boy Scouts program, which was founded to teach boys patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred values.

Making that program co-ed changes that mission (unless you are saying that the girls are being admitted to teach the boys those values).

I'm not making a legal claim that they are violating their charter, I'm simply pointing out that they are changing their mission. It's OK to agree with changing the program - just admit that it's a fundamental change.

How many 16/17 yr old girls can carry a 60/70 lb pack 10 miles a day through the mountains for fifty miles?

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
How many 16/17 yr old girls can carry a 60/70 lb pack 10 miles a day through the mountains for fifty miles?

How many boy scouts can do that?

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
How many 16/17 yr old girls can carry a 60/70 lb pack 10 miles a day through the mountains for fifty miles?

How many boy scouts can do that?

No shit. 60 pounds is a pretty heavy freeking pack, we did about 45 pounds up Rainier.

quote:

. . . This is 100% about getting more families involved and increasing membership. Membership has been down for a few years and some districts are actually in serious financial trouble.

So did the BSA execs think "girls/young women in society today need a program to promote higher values, morals, integrity, courage, character; lets expand Boy Scouts to include them, for the good of the nation". Or did the BSA execs think "we need more money, how can we get more members, lets get girls on board".


Note to Ronin re the pics above.

Some past author commented along the lines of "when you see humor in sarcasm, good chance there's some underlying truth".

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
Or did the BSA execs think "we need more money, how can we get more members, lets get girls on board".

Once they agreed years ago it was a good idea to sell their values for money, other things followed. The same thing happens in politics. They sell out their values first, then come up with a great cover story later why this was the wise thing to do.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by Dallas239:
Again, that is the charter of Boy Scouts of America. Boy Scouts is merely one program from the Boy Scouts of America organization. If you believe this change violates the charter of Boy Scouts of America, then Boy Scouts of America has been violating it's charter for more than half a century.

Notably missing from the purpose you quoted is the word "only." The only restrictions on the BSA charter are not issuing stock or operating for profit. Also notable is that the BSA uses technology and techniques that did not exist in 1916.

I get that - the larger organization has programs that are co-ed. Got it, understand it. The change that has occurred is to the Boy Scouts program, which was founded to teach boys patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred values.

I'm not sure what you get, because there's so much misinformation in this thread. But what you're quoting is from the BSA charter, which is not equivalent to the Boy Scout program. So if you think that what you wrote means the program should be ONLY boys, then you are 50 years late.

quote:

Making that program co-ed changes that mission (unless you are saying that the girls are being admitted to teach the boys those values).

What a strange assertion. Are you saying that because Scouts BSA will now teach girls patriotism, courage, and self-reliance, it can NO LONGER teach those same values to boys? What's the basis for that?

quote:

I'm not making a legal claim that they are violating their charter, I'm simply pointing out that they are changing their mission. It's OK to agree with changing the program - just admit that it's a fundamental change.

If anything, the mission is expanding because girls will be allowed into more programs than they are already in currently (which is the majority BTW). But there's certainly nothing being removed from the mission.

Dallas, I haven't read this entire thread, so please tell me- do you actually support this move?

Don't tell me about "misinformation in this thread". Just tell me if you support the BOY Scouts actually admitting females.

13 pages of criticism good,
bad,or indifferent.

I gotta wonder, of all the people that chimed in with a comment or suggestion ,

what % of those people has spent four or more hours with a group of five or more kids , teaching them what they need to know for a better life ? (Since the original post)

or is this just a bunch of silly finger pointing?

that includes scouting, F.F.A., 4 -H, church groups, big brothers or sisters, team coaching ?

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
13 pages of criticism good,
bad,or indifferent.

I gotta wonder, of all the people that chimed in with a comment or suggestion ,

what % of those people has spent four or more hours with a group of five or more kids , teaching them what they need to know for a better life ? (Since the original post)

or is this just a bunch of silly finger pointing?

that includes scouting, F.F.A., 4 -H, church groups, big brothers or sisters, team coaching ?

As Cub Commitee Chairman, since the OP of Oct 11, I have prepared for and/or attended 7 Pack meetings, about 12 Den meetings, including Blue and Gold and Pinewood Derby, all of which involve traning opportunities to teach Cubs, by precept and example (and I can do a better job of such).

Since the OP I couldn't even tell you how many hours I have spent with a group of kids.

I coach football, baseball and a 4H archery team. Plus I volunteer helping my daughters dance team and at their school. I am also involved with scouting but that is new for my son and we have not attended any activities or meetings since around September because the other sports consume too much time.

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
13 pages of criticism good,
bad,or indifferent.

I gotta wonder, of all the people that chimed in with a comment or suggestion ,

what % of those people has spent four or more hours with a group of five or more kids , teaching them what they need to know for a better life ? (Since the original post)

or is this just a bunch of silly finger pointing?

that includes scouting, F.F.A., 4 -H, church groups, big brothers or sisters, team coaching ?

Since Oct 2011, served on our Scout Committee in various positions and liaison with charter organization (LDS church) . My 13 year-old son is a Life Scout and we will be in Yosemite for a 50-60 miler at the end of June.

Scouting was a big part of my life through +/- age 22. Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Explorer. Adult leader (Assistant Scoutmaster and Unit Commissioner.)

My "break" from Scouting came when they decided that women could be Scoutmasters. My issue wasn't with that question per se, although I wasn't-- and am not-- jazzed with that idea. My issue was with WHY they made the decision. National essentially said that their principles were becoming too costly to defend.

That, right there, told me pretty much everything I needed to know about the state of "leadership" in the BSA in the early 90s, and I've seen nothing to convince me that there's been any kind of counter-revolution since then.

"We believe this... unless it becomes too costly."
Or in other words:
"A Scout is Brave. Unless it's inconvenient."

How can that ever be defensible? Ever?

This is more of the same. It's too costly to pass up POTENTIAL revenues. The "focus groups" that allegedly led them to the recent decision didn't include current Scouts, current Scouters, even alumni... just families with multiple children, asked "Would you consider Scouting if it meant you had FEWER activities to run to, what with them including girls now?"

Dad was an Eagle also (1948) and I'm glad he isn't here to see what the BSA has become. I'm almost sorry that I am.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:...
Since Oct 2011, served on our Scout Committee in various positions and liaison with charter organization (LDS church) . My 13 year-old son is a Life Scout and we will be in Yosemite for a 50-60 miler at the end of June.

About 25 yrs ago I was asked to be Scoutmaster, and committed a then unforgivable sin. Rather than the summer camp at the traditional BSA Council camp, I opted for a 50 miler in Yosemite. Seems it started a tradition, for the next ten years our troop had one Yosemite trip each year, half involved 50 milers for the older scouts, 20 milers for the younger scouts, and all included either Half Dome or Clouds Rest. I was out of the dog house. (One thing I learned, don't let mom put 2 gallons of water in the backpack after pack inspection )

Russ, any idea on which trails you might hit for your 50-60 miles?


Sidenote to DennisM. Sadly, I understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
How many 16/17 yr old girls can carry a 60/70 lb pack 10 miles a day through the mountains for fifty miles?

How many boy scouts can do that?

My first 50 mile trip was at 13. My pack was in the 45ish pound range. We went every year. By the time I was almost 18, my pack was in the 60ish pound range. We all could do it.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:....My first 50 mile trip was at 13. My pack was in the 45ish pound range. We went every year. By the time I was almost 18, my pack was in the 60ish pound range. We all could do it.

And if your roots were in the Utah area, and you hiked the Uintas, you were prob carrying that 60 pounds for 50 miles at altitudes around 10K feet. Swimming at Scout Lake, Camp Steiner, elevation 10,400 feet is one of my Scout memories. Our Senior Patrol Leader did his mile swim there.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Dallas, I haven't read this entire thread, so please tell me- do you actually support this move?

Don't tell me about "misinformation in this thread". Just tell me if you support the BOY Scouts actually admitting females.

Yes.

I am a Pack Committee Chair (Cub Scouts), and we have made the decision along with our charter org not to have a family Cub Scout pack, in large part because there is an excellent Girl Scout troop at our school. It is led by one of our Cub Scout leaders, and they do all the scouting stuff, much more than many Girl Scout troops. But I strongly suspect that as we grow to the point of having our own Scouting BSA troop, we will choose to have a girl's troop as well.

Troops will still be separated by gender, there will be no coed troops or patrols. Even opposite-gender troops of the same charter org will largely meet separately. I'm glad that my daughter will have the opportunity for the same scouting experience as my son and to learn the same skills and values.

quote:

Originally posted by Dallas239:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Dallas, I haven't read this entire thread, so please tell me- do you actually support this move?

Don't tell me about "misinformation in this thread". Just tell me if you support the BOY Scouts actually admitting females.

Yes.

I am a Pack Committee Chair (Cub Scouts), and we have made the decision along with our charter org not to have a family Cub Scout pack, in large part because there is an excellent Girl Scout troop at our school. It is led by one of our Cub Scout leaders, and they do all the scouting stuff, much more than many Girl Scout troops. But I strongly suspect that as we grow to the point of having our own Scouting BSA troop, we will choose to have a girl's troop as well.

Troops will still be separated by gender, there will be no coed troops or patrols . Even opposite-gender troops of the same charter org will largely meet separately. I'm glad that my daughter will have the opportunity for the same scouting experience as my son and to learn the same skills and values.

...for now. Coed troops would be too far too fast. There would be great opposition. Better to take smaller, more benign steps until the public is conditioned to accept it. That's how it worked getting openly gay scout leaders accepted. Start with emotional stories about gay boys left out. Public is conditioned to accept their eligibility. Get Robert Gates from the Stampy Feet admin to run the BSA. now get openly gay leaders accepted. There you have the Progressive pattern. Mark my words. Won't be long before 50 mile backpacking trips are eliminated because the girls in the coed troop can't do it.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

...for now. Coed troops would be too far too fast. There would be great opposition. Better to take smaller, more benign steps until the public is conditioned to accept it. That's how it worked getting openly gay scout leaders accepted. Start with emotional stories about gay boys left out. Public is conditioned to accept their eligibility. Get Robert Gates from the Stampy Feet admin to run the BSA. now get openly gay leaders accepted. There you have the Progressive pattern. Mark my words. Won't be long before 50 mile backpacking trips are eliminated because the girls in the coed troop can't do it.

Darth, I am sure that you are aware that the Scout leaders are chosen and/or approved by the chartering organization of each unit. I don't have a problem with a chartering org. being able to chose the leader it thinks is best to teach its members the principles of scouting. And in most cases, the members and the charter org. they choose share common values. Frankly, The LDS Church's decision to pull back from some scouting programs probably hastened these changes.