Pick some brains around here as to incident that happened to me last night. It never escalated and I think I handled it the best I could.
A friend's band was playing last night at a campground near me. I know him and his wife very well and they're really good people.
Stopped at the front gate and paid the $5 to get in. The posted speed limit is 5 mph and I get it. Lots of camping trailers around, kids running all over and so on.
I always watch my speed around groups of people because you never know what could happen.
I think I was doing around 8-9 mph when a few campers started screaming at me to slow down. I find it hard to just idle the car and keep at 5 mph or less unless I want to ride my brakes.
I pull around the corner and a golf cart comes flying up beside me and cuts me off. Still going slow so it's not like I jammed the brakes.
Guy starts screaming and cussing at me. Calls me every name in the book basically.
I am armed. I am stone sober.
This is a public campground not anything federal. No signs at the entrance banning weapons.
The guy never did exit his golf cart but what if he did? What if he got out, came over to my door? Started throwing punches?
I didn't say a thing to him. Sat in my car. Yes, my hand shifted to my holster but that was it. Never had to make a verbal command or draw.
I ended up just turning around and leaving. I got to the exit and texted my friends and told them what happened and that I wasn't going to be there.
There have been fights before back where the bands play and they serve alcohol.
I left before it escalated as I'm sure it would have.
I go by the simple rule of, "Avoid stupid people in stupid places doing stupid things".

People are often the best mirror; people see us doing things we don't see ourselves do.

A lot of people were screaming at you to slow down?

You begin by saying that the speed limit was 5 mph, but then say you were doing double that. If you find it hard to keep a speed at idle without riding the brakes, then ride the brakes. You're describing a situation that you caused.

The person who followed you made no threats. He called you names, and cursed.

What if he exited his golf cart and threw punches? At your car?

You didn't make a verbal command? What would you have commanded him to do? Stop punching my car? Stop cursing, or I'll shoot?

You did the correct thing: you withdrew. That's the best self-defense you could have employed, other than not pissing off the campers in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
People are often the best mirror; people see us doing things we don't see ourselves do.

A lot of people were screaming at you to slow down?

You begin by saying that the speed limit was 5 mph, but then say you were doing double that. If you find it hard to keep a speed at idle without riding the brakes, then ride the brakes. You're describing a situation that you caused.

The person who followed you made no threats. He called you names, and cursed.

What if he exited his golf cart and threw punches? At your car?

You didn't make a verbal command? What would you have commanded him to do? Stop punching my car? Stop cursing, or I'll shoot?

You did the correct thing: you withdrew. That's the best self-defense you could have employed, other than not pissing off the campers in the first place.

3-4 people including the guy that raced to catch me.
No, he made no threats but that doesn't mean he wouldn't act.
Punches at me, not my car.
LEOs use verbal commands and so can citizens. Sometimes they can't be used if you're caught by surprise and I definitely wouldn't have pulled a pistol for him swearing at me. Seriously?

And what if he got out of his golf cart with his fists clenched? I should just sit in my car and eat a few punches?
I did do the right thing and withdraw but what if it turned out differently?
I went past probably another 10 campsites before he caught up with me and no one else was yelling.

The only justification for lethal force is a threat to your life, or that of your loved ones. Your account does not mention any attempt at bodily harm, only the possibility of it. What are the extenuating circumstances? Was the person double your weight and 20 yrs. younger, or was he an 80 yr. old golf cart jockey?
As an armed citizen, you can't rely on your possession of a firearm as defense for using it. You need justification in the form of "what would a normal person do"? What you did is an entirely correct response: walk away if you can. This will save your hide at any time, even if your state has a "Castle Doctrine", where you have no duty to retreat.
Please, if at all possible, stay away from circumstances where you feel you need to draw your gun. If you do draw, expect the full force of the law to come down on you. You will be guilty before you are proven innocent. That's just my opinion!

So he could tell the difference between 5mph and 8-9 mph? Really?

Wouldn't rolling up your window have protected you from his punches, if they were to happen?
I think that you made the right decision to leave. You would have been guilty of escalating force if not, based on what you have told us.
Glad you left. That was the right thing to do.

If you are able to ask a question, then deadly force is not appropriate. Drive away...

99.9% of situations don't require the use of force much less deadly force.

quote:

Originally posted by odin:
The only justification for lethal force is a threat to your life, or that of your loved ones. Your account does not mention any attempt at bodily harm, only the possibility of it. What are the extenuating circumstances? Was the person double your weight and 20 yrs. younger, or was he an 80 yr. old golf cart jockey?
As an armed citizen, you can't rely on your possession of a firearm as defense for using it. You need justification in the form of "what would a normal person do"? What you did is an entirely correct response: walk away if you can. This will save your hide at any time, even if your state has a "Castle Doctrine", where you have no duty to retreat.
Please, if at all possible, stay away from circumstances where you feel you need to draw your gun. If you do draw, expect the full force of the law to come down on you. You will be guilty before you are proven innocent. That's just my opinion!

I'm 51 and I would put his age at around 38. He had at least 20 pounds on me.
Threat to life and serious bodily harm. Was he a threat to my life? No. Serious bodily harm? Possible.
Every person has a right to defend themselves but I will leave if I have a chance.

quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:
So he could tell the difference between 5mph and 8-9 mph? Really?

I'm pretty sure he had been drinking. If you knew this campground, it's gone downhill and is pretty trashy if you know what I mean.

quote:

Every person has a right to defend themselves but I will leave if I have a chance

This is exactly what a responsible person would do! Especially if you think the person is under the influence of something. However, if you couldn't retreat and were faced with the person you described, presenting the firearm could have been justified. Just remember to be the first person to call 911 and report the altercation. This will help you out tremendously.

You seem to be level-headed. Thanks for your question!

odin

quote:

Originally posted by joatmonv:

quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:
So he could tell the difference between 5mph and 8-9 mph? Really?

I'm pretty sure he had been drinking. If you knew this campground, it's gone downhill and is pretty trashy if you know what I mean.

It’s probably not a good place to hang out, based on what you’ve told us.

Given the circumstances, leaving was the best option.
Before going to any public venue, event or function I find out if alcohol is allowed or in use. If it is, then often I just dont go.
And holidays make the alcohol thing worse.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:

quote:

Originally posted by joatmonv:

quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:
So he could tell the difference between 5mph and 8-9 mph? Really?

I'm pretty sure he had been drinking. If you knew this campground, it's gone downhill and is pretty trashy if you know what I mean.

It’s probably not a good place to hang out, based on what you’ve told us.

Even though it's close to my house, I don't go there. This is the second time I've been there.
First time was in July of 2018 and a band I like was playing there. That night there was a huge fight between some campers. Police were called and people arrested.
I wasn't part of it but it was still bad.
Why did I go back? The lead singer of the band last weekend is a childhood friend I've known for a long time and his wife invited me to come. 2 of the best people I know.
I did tell them that I would not be coming back if they played that campground again.

quote:

Originally posted by odin:

quote:

Every person has a right to defend themselves but I will leave if I have a chance

This is exactly what a responsible person would do! Especially if you think the person is under the influence of something. However, if you couldn't retreat and were faced with the person you described, presenting the firearm could have been justified. Just remember to be the first person to call 911 and report the altercation. This will help you out tremendously.

You seem to be level-headed. Thanks for your question!

odin

This is what I wanted to see. Not validation but a clear response.
I know I'm not the only person that has had something happen to them while they were in their vehicle.
If you had something happen, what did you learn? Was retreat your #1 goal?
I can honestly say that I don't want conflict.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Given the circumstances, leaving was the best option.
Before going to any public venue, event or function I find out if alcohol is allowed or in use. If it is, then often I just dont go.
And holidays make the alcohol thing worse.

Yoop, you know what part of N.E. Ohio I'm from. Things have gotten worse here. Lordstown closed and the trickle down took a few months but it's depressed here now worse than ever.
Heroin and violence seem to be the norm.
Pretty much everything revolves around alcohol here. Bands, benefits, poker runs, etc. I just try to keep a level head and pay attention to my surroundings.

quote:

And what if he got out of his golf cart with his fists clenched? I should just sit in my car and eat a few punches?

roll up the window and drive off. I'm not seeing a lethal threat in anything you describe.

If you are in a vehicle and can drive away, drive away.

I'd have a very hard time buying self defense for someone buttoned up in their vic with 3-5 guys punching the car / windows. Just keep driving away.

Obviously if they get through your window(s) / internal, that's a different story.

When armed, discretion is the better part of valor. If you want to act like Billy-Bad-Ass, leave your gun home and go fisticuffs if you need to prove something.

And while 8-9MPH isn't fast, it is nearly twice the posted limit.

quote:

Originally posted by joatmonv:

quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:
So he could tell the difference between 5mph and 8-9 mph? Really?

I'm pretty sure he had been drinking. If you knew this campground, it's gone downhill and is pretty trashy if you know what I mean.

Don't go to to places where there are stupid people doing stupid things, even worse after dark.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
If you are in a vehicle and can drive away, drive away.

Exactly but I'm not naive enough to know that things can escalate quickly.
I just sat there while his golf cart blocked me from going forward.
He left eventually after calling me every name in the book.
If he would've gotten out of his golf cart and approached me, threat assessment would have gone up.
Reach through my open window and it would have gone to red.
Didn't happen though and I left to diffuse the situation.