It’s not a real documentary. I guess history gets written by the survivors. We all know the gist of the story, though I did learn a handful of details, as portrayed.

They had a brief recap of ‘Ruby Ridge’ in the 1st episode. As is the case, it’s easier to see with hindsight.

The main failure was not picking Koresh(not his real name) up when he was out jogging or in town. Once the Federal Agents were killed in the initial botched raid, there was little hope to back down.

I see the web has an assortment of videos & ‘details’ about the Branch Davidians. Not trying to attest to what the facts may be, it’s an easy way for the layperson to learn more.

I thought it was well-acted, but found it a bit too one-sided. As you said, though... It's a dramatization, not a documentary.

My biggest issue with it is that it claims at the end that the tear gas started the fire, when the overwhelming majority of the evidence shows that some of the Branch Davidians themselves deliberately set the fires. This has been confirmed with forensic evidence of accelerants and homemade torches, audio surveillance of Davidians discussing where to spread the fuel and when to light it, and testimony from survivors.

I just started rewatching this yesterday. I liked the series from the standpoint that it properly showed the conflicts between not just among the Davidians themselves, but between the Federal agents. Many people think that law enforcement organizations are monolithic. They aren't. There's differences between the organizational cultures of agencies such as the FBI, ATFE, and U.S. Marshall's Service and between subcultures within these agencies.

When you have an agency head that spent his/her formative years working in crime suppressive/SWAT environment with little or no experience in things like Investigations, it doesn't take much guessing to figure out what details will receive the most support and which might be neglected or ignored. Conflicts between the "Operators" and hostage negotiators can exist and are clearly shown, even though they're supposed to be working towards the same purpose. Stakeholders (taxpayers) need to recognize not just these differences but the need for agency accountability.

I think that people who understand what went on at Waco are entrenched in their positions.

Threads devolve into either “fuck ATF” or “they could have just given up”.

The saddest thing was the ATF was a hair away from disbandment. There is no reason for this agency, it should fall under the FBI.
After Ruby Ridge then Waco, I don't recall the media pounding away at Bill Cliton.
No news is also Fake news.

have not seen this show but did catch a documentary years ago... that showed or claimed the first thing the ATF agents did when arriving in force was to shoot the dogs that were in a pin....

If that is true I would have opened up on them too.

I read a book last year called "Cold Zero", written by a guy who was an FBI HRT sniper at both Ruby Ridge and Waco. He has some interesting takes on both incidents that never (as I can recall) made it into the media reports.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
I thought it was well-acted, but found it a bit too one-sided. As you said, though... It's a dramatization, not a documentary.

My biggest issue with it is that it claims at the end that the tear gas started the fire, when the overwhelming majority of the evidence shows that some of the Branch Davidians themselves deliberately set the fires. This has been confirmed with forensic evidence of accelerants and homemade torches, audio surveillance of Davidians discussing where to spread the fuel and when to light it, and testimony from survivors.

It is confirmed that they themselves started the fires. In addition to what you listed, there is aerial FLIR surveillance which shows the fires being started. A sad situation all around, and things could have been handled differently, but ultimately they sealed their fate.

quote:

Originally posted by njauto:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
I thought it was well-acted, but found it a bit too one-sided. As you said, though... It's a dramatization, not a documentary.

My biggest issue with it is that it claims at the end that the tear gas started the fire, when the overwhelming majority of the evidence shows that some of the Branch Davidians themselves deliberately set the fires. This has been confirmed with forensic evidence of accelerants and homemade torches, audio surveillance of Davidians discussing where to spread the fuel and when to light it, and testimony from survivors.

It is confirmed that they themselves started the fires. In addition to what you listed, there is aerial FLIR surveillance which shows the fires being started. A sad situation all around, and things could have been handled differently, but ultimately they sealed their fate.

ATF and FBI had no business being there in the first place, so no, it wasn't them who ultimately sealed their fate.

Not a very good series. Very inaccurate and one sided. Lots of mistakes made by both sides.

I started watching it earlier. (Michael Shannon is working his ass of these days, acting in everything.)

Can't say I know much of substance about the story. My take going into the show and this thread was some vague variation of "group of religious kooks and their hillbilly jesus were gathered more or less legally in their creepy piece of shit compound outside of We Ain't Comin' Out, and they did some shit that brought the Feds calling in a big way, a raid ensued, it was an enormous clusterfuck, kids and women died in a fire, and the government is probably largely to blame, in one form or another."

Unfair bias or experience, could go either way in my case, honestly. I have many reservations and criticisms in general about both/all parties involved in this mess. Plenty of fault to go around I'm sure.

But I have no love whatsoever for real separatists and any kooky variation thereof, or arms traders if real and not some kooky trap or halfbaked scheme that barely qualifies. Did whatever they were up to necessitate a raid and all the drama? I've no idea.

Are there any reasonably unbiased looks at this and Ruby Ridge? I've never read about either, beyond a headline or two back then.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
Michael Shannon is working his ass of these days, acting in everything.

It ain't so hard, when you play every character the same.

It's based on FBI negotiator Gary Noesner's book (Michael Shannon's character) Stalling for Time.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
Michael Shannon is working his ass of these days, acting in everything.

It ain't so hard, when you play every character the same.

Yeah, but it's a complex guy: constipated, and angry.

quote:

Originally posted by Expert308:
I read a book last year called "Cold Zero", written by a guy who was an FBI HRT sniper at both Ruby Ridge and Waco. He has some interesting takes on both incidents that never (as I can recall) made it into the media reports.

Christopher Whitcomb. I found it to be an excellent book. His writing style is fun and a tad gritty at times. I’ve read it a few times.

quote:

Originally posted by SIG228:

quote:

Originally posted by njauto:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
I thought it was well-acted, but found it a bit too one-sided. As you said, though... It's a dramatization, not a documentary.

My biggest issue with it is that it claims at the end that the tear gas started the fire, when the overwhelming majority of the evidence shows that some of the Branch Davidians themselves deliberately set the fires. This has been confirmed with forensic evidence of accelerants and homemade torches, audio surveillance of Davidians discussing where to spread the fuel and when to light it, and testimony from survivors.

It is confirmed that they themselves started the fires. In addition to what you listed, there is aerial FLIR surveillance which shows the fires being started. A sad situation all around, and things could have been handled differently, but ultimately they sealed their fate.

ATF and FBI had no business being there in the first place, so no, it wasn't them who ultimately sealed their fate.

Do you mean the ATF and FBI specifically or law enforcement in general? Because the repeated and systematic rape of many children and illegal weapons possession under law required action. Again, come out like a man and deal with this in a court of law and there would be no deaths.

jljones called it a month ago.

We've now had both "Fuck ATF/FBI" as well as "They should have just come out".