Wikipedia defines a Western as:

quote:

The Western is a genre of fiction typically set in the American frontier (commonly referred to as the "Old West" or the "Wild West") between the California Gold Rush of 1849 and the closing of the frontier in 1890, and commonly associated with folk tales of the Western United States, particularly the Southwestern United States, as well as Northern Mexico and Western Canada.

I'll admit that I don't know enough about the genre to know whether I should take umbridge with this definition or not. I do know that I rather enjoy watching them, and assumed that I could just tell when movies were a "Western". I want to be clear though: I am not a terribly knowlegdeable film student.

That being said, at one point in the last while (maybe 20 years or so), I learned that The Man with No Name trilogy is actually a Spaghetti Western. We all know why I guess, but for me it was a indication that there was more to this genre than I, a Western plebe, knew.

Fast forward a bit and over the course of my tenure here, I've seen it claimed a few times that Open Range and Tombstone are also, in fact, not Westerns.

With the passing of Val Kilmer, I will probably rewatch some of his movies that I particularly enjoy: The Saint, Willow, Heat, and Tombstone. This leads me to again ponder the comment "Tombstone isn't a Western."

Why? Is it as simple as the period or location? What about Open Range? Same?

I don't want anyone to take this as a difinitive discussion, or something you have to prove one way or another. I just know that I don't know a whole lot when it comes to movies and genres, but I DO know that I enjoy reading all of your perspectives on film and movies.

Are there other difinitive Westerns out there that are "must see"? (I've seen more than some, less than others.)

Western has become a pretty broad term inclusive of basically any facet of our traditional "western." When I'm perusing the offerings under the title of "western", for example, "Cowboys and Aliens" pop up. Also, "The Hatfields and McCoys" (w/Kevin Costner), the same.

I reject any but the traditional "western", but it's like a lot of things, viz. definitions change. Like, when I was a kid, "gay" meant happy.

I’ve never heard that Tombstone and/or Open Range weren’t considered “Westerns” by somebody. I’d be curious to hear the reasons why. I don’t know what else they’d be.

I recommend the movie Tom Horn, mostly because it's filmed around here, as far as Westerns go, Tombstone would be considered one based on location and what happened, now if they filmed it in downtown NYC, probably not.

I have never heard anyone saying that about those 2 films not being a western either. I would love to hear the reasoning behind that.

I will throw this out there to muddy the question a little further.

I spent a quarter in college with a Film professor that walked us through how Star Wars A New Hope was actually a western. It was one of the coolest classes I have taken, as well as one of the easiest "A's" that I received.

I still get a smile on my face thinking about that class.

Western TV Series were as common in 50/60's as a sitcom today.
A lot of movies as well.
Pretty great entertainment.

Westerns are Westerns because we say they are Westerns, because we are familiar with the genre. That Wikipedia definition is what happens when you attempt to classify a thing which defies strict classification.

In terms of taxonomy, Westerns take place for the most part in the 19th Century, and always in the western portion of what is now the "lower 48".

Quigley Down Under contains what has become an iconic Western figure- Matthew Quigley- portrayed by the even more iconic Western actor, Tom Sellick. But, except for the briefest sequence over which play the opening credits, the film does not take place in the American West. Hell, it doesn't even take place in the same hemisphere as the American West. Quigley Down Under is not a Western, but we tend to think of it as such. Try applying a Wikipedia definition to that.

Again, though- taxonomy. In addition to time and place, Westerns contain horses, lever action rifles and single action revolvers, Stetsons, spurs, cattle ranches and ranchers, frontier towns, Indians I SAID INDIANS and so forth. The heroic Western figure, the evil opposing forces, whatever they may be- the themes are so well known as to be ingrained in the American male.

But, Westerns are Westerns because we say they are Westerns, because we know Westerns when see see them.

Jeremiah Johnson- I do not think of this great film as a Western, but it could be argued to be such. The same goes for The Searchers- a towering film of great significance, set in West Texas in the aftermath of the Civil War. John Wayne, Indian attacks, Texas, directed by the great Western director, John Ford. etc. But, I do not think of it as a Western. Why? Because I just don't.

Open Range and Tombstone? Who in the Hell is saying these are not Westerns?? Most assuredly, these are Westerns. Tombstone recounts the single most famous gunfight of the old west. It's Western as all get-out. If Tombstone is not a Western, then, there are no Westerns. Any man who says this is not a Western, I would say to them, by God, I am your huckleberry. Git your shooter and let's commence to poppin'.

Open Range- same thing. Come on. Cattlemen versus corruption, clearly demarcated good and evil. The Hell??

You don't need Wikipedia to clumsily attempt to define something you know deep down.

I even consider Alaska based movies to be westerns:
North To Alaska. The Spoilers.
Two other non-western westerns:
Drums Along The Mohawk. Last of the Mohicans.

If Firefly isn't a Western, I'm not an uncle's monkey..

I'd say the same for No Country For Old Men and Hell or High Water. They're modern Westerns.

Though hugely invigorated by Italian Sergio Leone, and other Italians, the Western are an American art form, and American mythos.

If you get the chance, watch Sergio Leone: The Italian Who Invented America. It's a fantastic look at Leone and his films, with commentary by several directors (Tarentino is a huge fan), as well as Clint Eastwood. The discussion of the dust-up between Leone and DeNiro on the set of Once Upon A Time In America is hilarious.

I've also been reading some Western novels and short stories lately. Louis L'Amour is my favorite, so far. William Johnstone is pretty formulaic, and Elmer Kelton seems like he's trying too hard, but I've only read a few of theirs.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
If Firefly isn't a Western, I'm not an uncle's monkey..

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I even consider Alaska based movies to be westerns:
North To Alaska. The Spoilers.
Two other non-western westerns:
Drums Along The Mohawk. Last of the Mohicans.

I don’t, but you do you

I've had people argue to me that Star Wars isn't sci-fi. People are, in short, sometimes just fucking dumb.

Like is The Wild Bunch not a Western because it's set in 1913?

As far as I'm concerned it's like porn, I know a Western when I see it. Tombstone is 100% a Western. A hill I will die on.

Star Wars is not real Sci Fi.

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
I'd say the same for No Country For Old Men and Hell or High Water. They're modern Westerns.

I'd say no. The three burials of Melquiades Estrada, maybe, barely.

To expand.. to say something is a modern western is to say it's not a western. It's an era, a time period as much if not more than a setting or location. If it were about location, many of our beloved westerns would be mid-westerns.

The time period when the film was made does not matter as to whether it is a western or not. The time period and location of the setting do. Thats why Tombstone and Open Range and Unforgiven are Westerns but Hell or High Water or No Country for Old Men are neo-westerns.

It is not like film noir where the time of the film's production matters, imo.

quote:

Originally posted by Loswsmith:
Like is The Wild Bunch not a Western because it's set in 1913?

What about The Last Hard Men or Big Jake, both set in 1909?


Does it matter whether it's just before the turn of the century or just after, or whether the cowboy in a "Western" has a M1911 instead of a revolver?

Tom Horn with Steve McQueen takes place in 1903. Now, is there anyone here who would say that Tom Horn is not a Western?

As I said in my first post, Westerns take place for the most part in the 19th Century. The old west did not automatically end on December 31, 1899. In many films, no exact date is given, because it doesn't matter. Taxonomy: horses, cowboys, lever actions, cattle drives, Indians I SAID INDIANS, frontier towns, etc. Add it all up and what do you have?

And, to be precise, I neglected to include Mexico when I said that Westerns were always set in the western portion of what is now the "lower 48". Otherwise, a lot of films which are clearly Westerns would have to be excluded, including The Wild Bunch.

Again, this is not hard. You recognize a Western when you see it.

If we tried to classify Western films precisely using a rigid classification, it wouldn't work. As I mentioned before, there are some films which I don't consider to be Westerns. The Searchers, for example- as I mentioned, I do not consider this a Western, this is merely a fluke due to my relationship with and understanding of the film.

The Maltese Falcon- many, many film buffs consider this to be the first Film Noir, but I do not consider it to be Film Noir, because I classify it as part of the Warner Brothers pre-war crime film cycle. Believe me, I am in a minuscule minority with this opinion. I don't care. My personal classification of this film does not diminish its greatness in any way or to any degree. The same applies to how we internally classify Westerns.

(OK, Para, then, just what is the first Film Noir?)

The first American Film Noir is William Wyler's 1940 The Letter. Trust me, it's all there.

The Letter is Noir. Also from 1940: Stranger On The Third Floor.

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Stranger On The Third Floor

Stranger On The Third Floor is proto-noir, arising from low-budget horror films.