After reading Para's thread on Robert Osbourne, I was motivated to ask what are your favorite Film Noir movies. I have only seen a few, and would appreciate suggestions. Two I like are Maltese Falcon and Double Indemnity.

Two of my favorites are The Big Sleep and Out of the Past. In the category of neo-noir, my hands down favorite is Blood Simple.

If you're asking for favorites- for me, hands down, the most enjoyable film noir which I can watch over and over is Jacques Tourneur's Out of the Past.

I have lots of noir favorites, but this film is top of the heap.

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Originally posted by parabellum:
If you're asking for favorites- for me, hands down, the most enjoyable film noir which I can watch over and over is Jacques Tourneur's Out of the Past.

I have lots of noir favorites, but this film is top of the heap.

Thanks! I have not seen that. If you care to list a few more that would be fantastic. You are the forum expert on film, methinks.

A few modern ones I like are Hard Eight, the Grifters and Chinatown. But they are not in the classic B&W 30s-50s era.

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Originally posted by FishOn:
A few modern ones I like are Hard Eight, the Grifters and Chinatown. But they are not in the classic B&W 30s-50s era.

When we refer to film noir, this refers not only to the films in the canon, but also a specific period of time- 1940 to 1959. If it's outside that time range, it ain't film noir. There are certainly films shot outside of this two decade window, and we would refer to this as either proto-noir or neo-noir, which are before and after the two decade interval, respectively.

If you want an education on film noir, sign up for Professor Muller's film class and listen to what he says when he introduces these films, and listen to what he says after the film. After that, 30 to 35 years of film watching and you'll be all set when it comes to understanding this film style.

http://1166199035.rsc.cdn77.or...irAlley-Schedule.pdf

I'll leave you with this- film noir is not a genre. Film noir is a style. It kills me when people refer to it as a genre. Excuse me, there are film noir Westerns (that's a genre, y'see- westerns), there are film noir science fiction films, there are film noir historical costume dramas, and so on. The style of film noir is overlayed on the genre of the film, whatever the genre may be. Hell, there are even buffs who will tell you that there are film noir comedies and musicals. Umm, no, (film noir relies on realism, and breaking into song and dance every few minutes is not realism, period) but you can see that this is a particular style being applied to a genre, not a genre being applied to a genre.

Thanks Para. I did not know that! I like the films better from that classic time period.

I need to learn more about the style for sure.

And also about style vs genre. I did not know about that, either. I am sure I used those words interchangeably in the past.

Thanks for the tips.

I wish I studied film for a while in college. Would have enjoyed it more than advanced chemistry, which I never used again.

Understanding film noir takes a long time, because there is lot of misinformation out there, and it takes years to find and be able to watch the films in the canon of film noir (by some estimates, 800 or so films in that two decade period).

If you're really serious about the subject, you will eventually get to a point where you know what a film buff knows and doesn't know about the subject when it comes up.

In addition to watching the films, reading is required. You can start with the Ursini/Silver Film Noir Reader series of books, but you may want to start with my favorite- James Naremore's More than Night: Film Noir in its Contexts.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Understanding film noir takes a long time, because there is lot of misinformation out there, and it takes years to find and be able to watch the films in the canon of film noir (by some estimates, 800 or so films in that two decade period).

If you're really serious about the subject, you will eventually get to a point where you know what a film buff knows and doesn't know about the subject when it comes up.

In addition to watching the films, reading is required. You can start with the Ursini/Silver Film Noir Reader series of books, but you may want to start with my favorite- James Naremore's More than Night: Film Noir in its Contexts.

Just put it in my saved items on Amazon. That is a serious book! Text-book level. But that is good. Thanks.

I like the noir, just cannot remember many of the film names. I did remember the Big Sleep with Bogie and Bacall.

In my opinion, of the four films Bogart and Bacall made together, only one of them is definitively film noir- Dark Passage, which is notable for the most effective use of a trend in Hollywood at that time- the subjective camera, but that's a story unto itself.

The Big Sleep? I imagine you will find plenty of people to agree with you that the film is done in the noir style, but not in my book. The Big Sleep is a truly great Warner Brothers crime film, but in my opinion, it ain't noir.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
In my opinion, of the four films Bogart and Bacall made together, only one of them is definitively film noir- Dark Passage, which is notable for the most effective use of a trend in Hollywood at that time- the subjective camera, but that's a story unto itself.

The Big Sleep? I imagine you will find plenty of people to agree with you that the film is done in the noir style, but not in my book. The Big Sleep is a truly great Warner Brothers crime film, but in my opinion, it ain't noir.

What elements (either present or missing) cause the film to fail the film noir litmus test? As you mentioned, many folks (myself included) mistakenly consider The Big Sleep film noir. Clearly, the more I learn about this subject, the less I know. Thanks!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hjs157,

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Clearly, the more I learn about this subject, the less I know. Thanks!

Me too!

Para - I am interested to know if you consider any or all of these three films Noir.

Sunset Boulevard
Notorious
Cat People (the original)

Thanks very much. Cat People feels Noir to me but seems to be missing elements. Notorious has a lot of the Noir elements but doesn't feel Noir to me by the end of the film. So I am curious to get your thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
...but you may want to start with my favorite- James Naremore's More than Night: Film Noir in its Contexts.

I just downloaded this to my Kindle and have started reading it. The title comes from Raymond Chandler (very excellent, IMO):

The streets were dark with something more than night.
- RAYMOND CHANDLER, “The Simple Art of Murder,” 1944

Hard for me to pick a favorite, but I would begin the with: "The Killers"
And I don't know if it fits the Noir genre, but I have to include: "White Heat".
And for fan of Hammett and Chandler, take a trip to the local library (or Amazon) and read their books. Much grittier and harder edged than the films they are based on. The Big Sleep was an eye opener!

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Originally posted by Jim Shugart:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
...but you may want to start with my favorite- James Naremore's More than Night: Film Noir in its Contexts.

I just downloaded this to my Kindle and have started reading it.

Then, you can help answer some of these questions, Jim. What's the very first sentence of Chapter 1 in that book?

Just briefly, but I'll answer in detail later- noir or not?:

Sunset Boulevard - Absolutely, positively yes

Notorious- No, this is not film noir. It is Hitchcock

Cat People- I know it may surprise some people, but, yes, this is film noir

The Killers- This film shares a key structural element with Sunset Boulevard and yes, it's film noir in a big way.

White Heat- An argument can be made for this being film noir, but, to me, it's Cagney and Warner Brothers and a great crime film and IMO, no, it's not film noir.

If there is any essential element to film noir, it is a thing no one here would ever guess. This is the thing that makes film noir so nebulous- how do you define it? We sit down to watch a film and a guy appears on horseback, wearing a stetson and a Peacemaker. He rides into town, where there are more guys with horses, stetsons and Peacemakers. This is a Western film. Very simple. Film noir? Not simple. That's why I love it. More on all that later.

"It has always been easier to recognize a film noir than to define the term."

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Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
"It has always been easier to recognize a film noir than to define the term."

Yes, indeed. So, when we start talking about what is or is not film noir, and I say to you that this style has no essential elements, and can be overlaid on most film genres, well, you can begin to see the dilemma.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
You can start with the Ursini/Silver Film Noir Reader series of books, but you may want to start with my favorite- James Naremore's More than Night: Film Noir in its Contexts.

I'd offer NIGHT OF THE HUNTER as my favorite noir film, but it certainly doesn't have all the classic elements. Maybe more "noirish." I don't think Ursini & Silver include it among films they consider film noir, but they have the image of the HATE-tatooed knuckles on the cover of Film Noir, which is straight out of Night of the Hunter.

I definitely want to check out the other flicks you guys have mentioned that I haven't seen (Out of the Past, etc.)

Roger Ebert once noted that Night of the Hunter defies classification, which is why, even though it's one of the truly great American films, it gets left off of a lot of lists. I think he was correct.

Is it noir? I don't think of it in those terms, but the film does star the film noir icon- Robert Mitchum.