Being much more of pistol guy and with no experience in urban armed disorder, I have readied my rifles for use. I live in a quiet suburban town to Denver wide streets and single family house. Somewhat upscale.

I have a Remington 700 22 inch barrel in 30.06 with a 4X12 scope I used to hunt some 30 years ago. Very very accurate. Mostly 150 grain bullets

Second rifle is a Stag AR-15 in 5.56 16 inch barrel fully tricked out with red laser, red dot and 2X7 Burris scope. I use this to amuse my students in class instruction. Ammo is 223 at 55 grains.

I have no military or police background.

Experienced insight would be much appreciated.

I found this a couple weeks ago when I was contemplating zeroing the scopes/iron sights on a couple rifles:

https://www.pewpewtactical.com...15-battlesight-zero/

I'm with you on being interested in experienced insight, though.

50/200 works for me.

Bruce

Of the three primary AR15 zero options (25/50/100) I like 100, for simplicity's sake.

It's all hold over, with no hold under, no matter the distance. So you don't have to worry about "I need to hold over from X to Y, and then hold under from Y to Z, and then hold over again from Z to infinity".
This also means you'll never miss high (at least due to bullet trajectory), sending rounds up and off into who knows what, like is easy to do with a 25 zero since it's 9+ inches high at 200ish yards.

A 100 yard zero keeps all the rounds within about a 2.5" vertical string, from muzzle contact out to 200ish yards. You just hold a couple inches high at close distances, hold a couple inches high at long distances, and hold right on at middle distances. Or, if that level of precision isn't needed, like when making shots on a human-sized target, you can just hold directly on from 0-200+ yards and still be hitting within 1 or 2 vertical inches of where you're aiming.

The main downside to the 100 yard zero is that it has a shorter effective range than other zeroes before trajectory starts to drop off too dramatically to be very practical. But I don't plan to try to make shots much past 250ish yards anyway with a 5.56 AR15 with iron sights or an unmagnified optic.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

50 yards. You are never more than 2 inches high or low out to about 225 yards Also 50 arcs would most like be the longest to engage a threat in an urban setting that could be justified.

For the bolt action, I zero at 100.

So....you say you're a pistol instructor. Turning the tables, I come to you as student. I have two handguns, and I want to use one or both for self defense.

#1 is a long barrel revolver, 44 Mag, with a scope. I last used it decades ago for hunting.

#2 is a 9mm semi-auto pistol. I shoot it into a dirt berm every now and then to make noise.

What should I do?

Sadly Fritz, not enough information to furnish a definite response.

My interest is focused on close quarters combat (less than 20 ft) in a self defense situation requiring force on force.

However some thoughts. Both guns can provide some measure of self defense. You do not mention self defense from animal or human. Or detail the 9mm handgun details as to maker, size, weight or type of action.

Making large assumptions, I would venture that the 44 Mag revolver would be cumbersome to use as a defense against a person or even large animal if needed quickly. This unsuitability would be enhanced by decades of non use.

The 9mm could be effective against a human adversary, but level and ease of effectiveness would be determined by the size, weight and action type.

Sorry I cannot be more helpful with out specifics.

quote:

Originally posted by EasyFire:
Sadly Fritz, not enough information to furnish a definite response.

My question with handguns was to provide you with example of what you are asking us. I am reasonably well versed in handguns, as well as shotguns and rifles.

And back to your question with your rifles, the response should be -- Sadly EasyFire, not enough information to furnish a definite response.

However, your answers to my fabricated handgun questions should be a starting point for your own rifle questions. And resulting answers.

At what distances do you expect to engage targets? How comfortable are you at adjusting your POA, for distances different than your zero. What's your expected accuracy? What's your expected rate of fire? How well do you manage recoil? What level of training/practice are you able to commit to?

For an AR with a red dot & thinking of ranges I might realistically need for personal defense I prefer to put a 50yrd zero on it.
But here are other options.

I like a 50 yard zero. +/- ~2" from point-blank out to about 250 yards. For the purposes of defense, that should cover everything you'd need with no need to worry about holding over or under. Just hold right on and you'll have effective hits on target.

Another vote for a 50/200 yard zero. It keeps you within 2 inches for ranges that you are very likely going to be shooting at.

Some long-winded* thoughts.
* Hint: For those who don’t like these long posts of mine, check out the “ignore” feature of the forum; it helps avoid letting things disturb one’s inner harmony.

The first consideration in zeroing any gun is what we intend to shoot with it. In this case, and without beating around the bush, we’re referring to shooting people who pose a deadly threat to us or others whom we might be justified in defending. Because of that we must also consider the legal aspects of the question, and specifically how far away someone might be that we would be justified in shooting at in a “disorder.” I have my own ideas about what such ranges might be, but it’s something each of us must decide for themselves.

Then there is the question of what weapon and ammunition would be appropriate for that purpose. For me an AR-type rifle/carbine chambered for 223/5.56 would be my no-question choice. Defending myself during a disorder would not require the greater power of a more potent cartridge, and that would probably even be inadvisable. Plus I might want the higher ammunition capacities and speed of fire over something like a bolt action rifle.

My personal ARs and the ones I zero for use by members of my agency are zeroed at 50 yards. Depending on optic and ammunition, that doesn’t automatically also mean a 200 yard zero, but it’s close. And unless we anticipate the need for some very high precision such as shooting the Molotov cocktail out of someone’s hand, a center mass aiming point will work for any reasonable engagement distance (IMO, of course).

I have a number of rifles suitable for precise long range engagements and they are all zeroed for 100 yards. The reason for that is because I normally dial the exact adjustment necessary for the range I’m shooting at, and with a 100 yard zero dialing is always up, never down. Not only is that one less thing to think about, the “zero stops” on my tactical type scopes actually prevent dialing down more than a few clicks at most.

I doubt I would ever be justified in using a precision rifle for self-defense purposes, but what if I were? Wouldn’t something other than a 100 yard zero be better? Possibly, and that takes us to the “point blank range” (PBR) concept.

PBR refers to selecting a zero that permits getting a “good enough” hit at a large variety of distances by aiming at the center of our target and without any scope adjustments. That’s what the 50 yard zero with an AR does for us, and it’s what big game hunters have done with their rifles for generations. For example, using one of my rifles and preferred defensive ammunition, if I change the zero to 250 yards, the trajectory of the bullet will not deviate more than 3.5 inches from the point of aim from the muzzle to 290 yards. To change my sight zero from 100 to 250 yards requires dialing up 0.8 mils, and then I’m set for almost any defensive situation I could imagine. If I had a rifle like yours, I would decide on how large of a target area I’d like to be confident of hitting (including allowing for the inherent precision of the rifle and ammunition) and use a ballistics calculator to tell me what zero distance would give me the greatest PBR.

Is the Strelok Pro Ballistics Calculator still available in Play Stores or has it been deemed too evil to remain published? I downloaded it to my iPad Mini a couple of years ago and I like it a lot.

One great advantage of this detailed ballistics calculator (along with being able to plug in specific scope/reticle combinations and specific loads from specific ammunition makers) is the ability of this tool to assist with zeroing rifles on short ranges. In this case, the calculator shows the data for zeroing for either 50 or 100 yards (a 100 yard zero is Trijicon's recommendation for this 1-4x Accupower) with Federal M193 in a 16" barrel, on a 20 yard range. Some people do not have access to 50 or 100 yard or longer ranges, and this calculator is a great tool for short ranges.



Image of 100 yard zero calculations, showing bullet drop at various ranges. The red mark just below the "278" in this image is the aiming point a shooter would use on a 20 yard range. That is to say, the shooter would place that spot of his scope's reticle on the center aiming point of the target (with the scope at maximum magnification) and adjust the scope's windage and elevation to strike the center. In this case, the calculator is showing that a 100 yard zero with this scope/barrel/ammunition combo would give the same strikes at 69 yards, hence the "69.100" value shown on the center of the target.



I know that some very serious rifle shooters take issue with the values output by this calculator, but I find it to be a useful tool. I don't think any calculator of this sort can be entirely accurate because of all the variables involved which cannot be factored in, such as the characteristics of individual rifle barrels and specific lots of ammunition.

Thanks to all the posters. Especially Sigfreund, Para and GrumpyBiker. I learned a lot from the posts and graphs. I really did not realize the small amount of elevation between 50 to 200 yards. When my private club range reopens (closed due the fire ban), I will reconfirm the AR at 50 yards, but leave the 30.06 at 200 yards should I ever go antelope hunting again. 

Para, the Strelok Ballistics Calculator is still active in Play Store and I downloaded it. Looks very interesting.

Fritz, my original post was purposely vague as I do not post about targeting people as it is truly abhorrent to me. And justified only in the most extreme circumstances.

While I have seen activity of mob riots in dense urban areas, I do not know what forms of such mobs would take in the more spacious suburban neighborhoods. Hopefully we will not find out.

quote:

Originally posted by EasyFire:
Para, the Strelok Ballistics Calculator is still active in Play Store and I downloaded it. Looks very interesting.

I don't recommend using it on a phone. There's not enough screen area. A tablet is your best bet.

There's a bit of a learning curve with this calculator. I don't recall if it came with a manual but, being male, I just dove in and started using it.

quote:

Originally posted by ruger357:
50 yards. You are never more than 2 inches high or low out to about 225 yards Also 50 arcs would most like be the longest to engage a threat in an urban setting that could be justified.

ITYM "50 yards?"

I concur with the above.

I'm in the 50 yard camp, only thing you have to think about is the 25 or less shot.

I'm going to get that Strelok Pro Ballistics Calculator when I get my next scope, that looks cool.

quote:

Originally posted by David W:
I'm in the 50 yard camp, only thing you have to think about is the 25 or less shot.

On average, a 50/200 yard zero will put you ±1 in. low at 25 yards.

Not anything I'd worry about in a combat scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:


Not anything I'd worry about in a combat scenario.

Combat absolutely, my mind drifted to killing critters around my house

50/200 for the AR and 200 for the 30.06.

I would also do 50 for the .22.

And Strelok Pro is great.