I zero my ARs at 1000inches/25meters. This is the way we did in the CG when we couldn’t get a 300meter range. Using nato ammo, it will effectively zero the rifle/carbine at 300m. Which is what the sight settings for elevation on an AR/M16 iron sights were designed to do.

This leaves you with a point blank range of 300 meters w/o having to think or make sight adjustments....for anything within 300 m. Everything will be within a few inches high for targets closer than 300m. Past that, you start adding elevation.

I also have a shitton of M193.

I don’t use a Red-dot or scope on either of my ARs but do have a Cmore on an AR pistol...it’s in 223 and I have a 300BLK barrel. The dot for it is set at 25 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by EasyFire:
Fritz, my original post was purposely vague as I do not post about targeting people as it is truly abhorrent to me. And justified only in the most extreme circumstances.

While I have seen activity of mob riots in dense urban areas, I do not know what forms of such mobs would take in the more spacious suburban neighborhoods.

Everyone with a working synapses knows this is about targeting people. Karen's loose Pomeranians on the Highline Canal aren't the rioters. Force on force isn't protecting yourself from a Telsa with wonky self drive software. But that wasn't my point. My point was to think of as instructor, in order to assist those less knowledgeable of firearms.

Your strength is with handguns, which means for at least the short term, handguns should be your first weapon of choice. You'll need training time with a rifle, regardless of type.

A bolt action 30-06 has a slow rate of fire, is slow to reload, and produces significant recoil. Enough recoil to seriously disturb your sight picture. Meaning that unless you train a lot, you won't be able to spot your own impacts at distances of less than 300-ish yards -- from a stable prone position. Offhand, kneeling, sitting -- you won't know where your shots land, until you see a reaction from what the bullet actually hit. Plus, you haven't shot the gun in decades. So unless your HOA asks you to provide overwatch for the long street entering your neighborhood, the 30-06 isn't the best choice.

AR15s have very manageable recoil, reload quickly, and potentially have a lot of round capacity. Pick your zero, but 50 yards is likely among the best options. Back to the instructor question -- a student asks you how they should aim on a B27 target for distances of 10 yards to 50 yards. Pretty certain you'll say they need to test it with live fire. So....you need to do the same with your AR15, at various distances. Maybe the sight-to-bore offset won't make any difference to your needs, but maybe it will. Your sight-over-bore height is probably 2" to 2.5" for the magnified optic. Maybe less for your red dot, assuming you have it on a 45-degree offset. At very close distances, the POI vs. POA can be an eye-opener for those used to shooting pistols.

The ballistic flight examples listed above will be pretty close with most ammo. However, your own ammo may be different. Or maybe the about the same. The best way to confirm is by practicing with live fire on targets at various distances.

Sight in the AR @ 25 yards. Do drills with multiple targets at different distances and aiming points. The hypothetical you are planning and training for seems to be up close and personal so killing these people beyond 50 yards would seem unlikely and there won’t be time for calculators, apps or range finders. Learn how to point and shoot your weapon.

I agree, for the stated question then potential use, 25-50 yards or so. That doesn’t mean 100 yards or more is out of the question, one can still check.

Since one can’t learn everything through their own trial & error, learn from some of these events in the media the last few months. What I mean is, keep your wits about you, realizing particulars & perceptions vary.

quote:

Originally posted by EasyFire:

Second rifle is a Stag AR-15 in 5.56 16 inch barrel fully tricked out with red laser, red dot and 2X7 Burris scope.

Can you give me some more details on how your red dot and scope are mounted?

A picture would help, or a good description.


What kind of red dot?

Sight your rifles' zero at 100 yards. Be aware that anything under that will impact just a tad lower than the crosshairs.

Once the first shot goes off the roaches are going to scatter, so make up your mind now on how close you want them to be when that happens.

IndianaBoy, my Stag AR has picatinny rails for mounting a scope. To that I attached a 1 inch high riser so the BUIS could still be used. On top of the riser I attached a see through cantilever mount and ring set to hold the scope. The rear ring mount has a picatinny top ring that the $50 open screen reflex red dot can be attached. Total height is 4 inches.

The rifle is an amusing toy and even has a front pistol grip holding a drop down swivel bipod (needed for the youngsters) plus a Magpul pistol grip with a storage area in the grip. A Streamlight TLR-2 provides both a white light and laser. Total weight is 1 ounce over 10 lbs.

It is a hoot to watch 10 to 50 year old juveniles shoot bowling pins with it. Even their wives…

quote:

Originally posted by EasyFire:
IndianaBoy, my Stag AR has picatinny rails for mounting a scope. To that I attached a 1 inch high riser so the BUIS could still be used. On top of the riser I attached a see through cantilever mount and ring set to hold the scope. The rear ring mount has a picatinny top ring that the $50 open screen reflex red dot can be attached. Total height is 4 inches.

Burris makes a decent quality scope.

You are utilizing three separate sighting systems in such a way that you are rendering all of them less effective.

If I may make a recommendation.

Ditch the riser.

If the cantilever mount provides proper height positioning for a good cheek weld, keep it.

Ditch the iron sights.

Keep the red dot as is, or you could also put it on a 45 degree offset mount.


Raising your scope up so high that you can see iron sights underneath it, has to be screwing up your cheek weld when using your scope.


Zero at 50, confirm at 200 if possible, and then confirm again at the longest distance you plan to shoot if your scope has hold over marks in the reticle.

A picture would be helpful, however I agree with IndianaBoy's assessment that this isn't a good setup. A sight-over-bore height of 4" for any standard AR15 results in a chin weld, not an optimal cheek weld. Sight-over-bore is normally in the 2" to 2.5" ballpark for ARs.

BTW -- when you say "total height is 4 inches", is that measurement over the center of the bore, or over the top of the pic rail?

A 2-7x optic generally means you won't be using the iron sights. You won't co-witness the irons -- they just become a gray blur in the scope. Ditch the riser.

Without seeing the cantelever mount, it's hard to say. Cheek weld is important, which means optimal sight-over-bore height. Fore/aft position is important, too. Some people like to have their nose almost on the charging handle. That's too far forward for me. I suspect my nose might be a couple of inches behind the charging handle. I've never actually measured it, as I go by feel. But my rear of my scopes are a little aft of the charging handle.

If I understand the red dot setup, you have it on top of the scope. If so, this also suggests a chin weld for the red dot. Although I originally never cared for the 45 degree offset for RDS, I've seen it used very effectively by folks who compete regularly in 3-gun. I suggest relocating the RDS 45 degrees to the right of the scope, assuming you're right handed.

I am transitioning all of my red dot equipped rifles to 36 yards...

Watch the video at the following link for a good explanation as to why.

36-yard Zero

sigfreund...

It removes all thinking except to put the dot in the center of mass.

No hold overs or unders. That grouping would be more than sufficient, as he states, to stay in the vitals.

Now, he does not elaborate on barrel length or ammunition, so there is that.

Once all of my rifles are zeroed for this new distance, I will take them to a range where I can use a magnifier behind the red dot and check out how close his calcs are for the various barrel lengths I have and ammunition I tend to shoot.

And there it is. Center mass. Zero whatever ya got at whatever yardage ya choose. Center mass at 400 meters ain’t nothin. Even with irons.
The Zombie Apocalypse scenario makes the hits even easier. Center mass head shots at rapid fire and shooting left, right and center is not a big deal under 50 yards. I think the shots are even easier with irons and I know the field of view is unmatched with irons.

50/200 for my AR with the red dot, 25/150 for my 336, the ACSS Raptor reticle on my scoped AR takes care of the longer distances.

sig...

The guy was/is a seal (probably "is" as I don't think that title goes away with retirement). That is good enough for me. If what is demonstrated in the video turns out to accurate with my own testing , then I think it is a better fit for me and the engagement ranges I think I could realistically be involved in.

I have 18" SPR type rifles and a LMT MWS in .308 (both scoped with NightForce higher powered scopes) that I would be leaning on if there was a realistic chance of trading 400-800m shots with someone else.

Lucky for me, in our wargaming/WROL what-iffing with our trusted group of family and friends, my nephew (who is a SWAT Sniper for a large agency here in the state) would be handling the long stuff.

And to be completely honest, if I have to reach out much beyond say 400 with a red dot, I don't think my eyes would cooperate.

Para... Thanks for the visuals. I think I may put together something similar (a ballistic chart) for my barrel length and load data. That will also give me a good feel for the 36-yard zero.

For the record, right now every rifle with a red dot on it that I own is zeroed for 50/200.

Edited to add... I am in need of a chrono. Do any of you have any recommendations for something good that would be considered a "value" setup?

Did sigfreund delete his posts or I am losing my mind?

sigfreund, why did you delete your posts?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
sigfreund, why did you delete your posts?

The ones I deleted were taking me personally in an undesired direction rather than contributing anything worthwhile to the original topic being discussed.

What does that mean? Would you speak plainly, please?

quote:

Originally posted by bozman:
Edited to add... I am in need of a chrono. Do any of you have any recommendations for something good that would be considered a "value" setup?

Take a look at the Magnetospeed Sporter.

I was becoming distracted annoyed by the way bozman was defending the video that advocated a 36 yard zero. “The guy was/is a seal …. That is good enough for me,” is an example of the argument from authority logical fallacy and was not a meaningful response to my questioning the facts of the man’s claim about the ballistics of his chosen zero. I could have responded by pointing that out, but in my experience doing that accomplishes nothing other than to increase the heat of a discussion rather than the light.