Any suggested sellers for "fine" shotguns?

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
Any suggested sellers for "fine" shotguns?

What's your budget?
$3k to $5k
$6k to $10k
$11k to $20k
or more ??

3k-5k

I got hung up on Browning Superposed Diana editions, I'm fighting the urge!

I may go the other way and buy a used Beretta 400 I came across.If I can find a smoking deal on a Diana it will be hard to fight the wallet reach.

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
Any suggested sellers for "fine" shotguns?
3k-5k budget

In the way a "fine shotgun" is traditionally defined, $3k-5k isn't a big enough budget. Maybe $10k. Definitely by $20k. I've shot a couple of Berettas and Gambas that were in the $50k-plus ballpark. Fondled a couple that were probably north of $100k. A "fine" shotgun to me means exquisite wood, real engraving, and perfect balance. I put the high-end Berettas and any Perazzi in this category. And maybe a lighter Krieghoff.

$3k-5k will get you some nice "B" shotguns. Options include new Brownings, some used Berettas with really low mileage, possibly a lower-end new Beretta. When you start putting more money into an over/under, you should determine if it will be a working gun or a safe queen. If you get into competition, I can guarantee your stock, receiver, and barrel will show wear. If you shoot with only a partner or two, your shotgun can maintain its looks -- if you really take care of it.

I have Browning 525 Sporting O/Us in 12, 20, and 28 gauge. The 12 gauge shows the most wear, after quite a few years of trap, skeet, FITASC, 5-stand, and sporting clays competition. It has a good 25,000 rounds down the tubes. I'm fortunate that the Browning 525 & 625 models fit me to a T without modifications.

In big matches the guns take a beating in the racks, as people grab their own guns and jostle others around. Incoming clay shards are responsible for a few of my bluing scratches. The stock has a small chip just behind the receiver, which is common with the 525 models. The mid-bead fell off, courtesy of a competitor who kicked it in the racks, and knocked it onto the ground. Its mid-bead is now ivory. State tournaments in driving rain didn't help. Competitions in desert areas with 30+ mph winds took a toll on the finish. My choke tubes look like they've been through a small war. The 20 and 28 gauge guns look better, as they have less than 5,000 rounds a piece.

But my 12 gauge B525 shoots, and it fits me. Long ago I lost count of the 25/25 I shot in trap. Shot 25/25 less frequently in skeet, but generally shot all stations 3 through 5 as doubles, in order to practice for sporting clays. Made Master Class in 3 years of sporting clays/5-stand/FITASC competition, held it for 3 more years until I switched to precision rifle competition. I doubt I would trade my B525 for anything less than a used Perazzi or mid-level Beretta. Finding the proper fit and knowing how you gun/chokes pattern is everything in an over/under shotgun.

My 12 gauge is beginning to show wear in the receiver -- indicated by the position of the locking lever. Probably somewhere in the 40k to 50k round count ballpark, my gunsmith will need to tighten it up. And this isn't an overly difficult or expensive job with a Browning. Based on other people's reports, my Browning probably has a useful life of at least 100k rounds of hard use. But probably more like 150k, even 200k rounds before it's toast. Expect more life with a Beretta. Shotguns like Perazzi and Krieghoff can go 500k rounds, even a million -- but with a few receiver parts being replaced.

Bottom line -- determine what you really want to do with this shotgun, then start narrowing down the options.

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
Any suggested sellers for "fine" shotguns?

Jacques

Joel Etchen

Indiana Gun Club

I believe all three sell new shotguns as well as used ones. Some excellent deals to be had if you go the used route. If you are patient you might be able to find a used Ljutic Mono at your price point, but it will definitely be an older one.

Perazzi TM-1 would be another alternative.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
$3k-5k will get you some nice "B" shotguns. Options include new Brownings, some used Berettas with really low mileage, possibly a lower-end new Beretta.

The venerable Beretta 686 can be had for under $2,000 new.

quote:

Originally posted by Houndog:

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
Any suggested sellers for "fine" shotguns?

Jacques

Joel Etchen

Indiana Gun Club

I believe all three sell new shotguns as well as used ones. Some excellent deals to be had if you go the used route. If you are patient you might be able to find a used Ljutic Mono at your price point, but it will definitely be an older one.

Perazzi TM-1 would be another alternative.

My preference is Pacific Sporting Arms. Not a "tactical" place at all, they specialize in high quality shotguns for clay competition and higher end hunting arms (including SxS guns for "Dangerous Game." Two great stores (in CA and MI) owned by a retired LAPD cop and clays champion. They'll also work with you (fairly) on trade in deals and that's always a plus when you're moving up in value.

https://pacificsportingarms.com/

First one that comes to mind is Steve Barnett's place in West Point, MS.
Also:
First Stop Guns in South Dakota
Chuck's Firearms here in Atlanta
Cauthen & Sons in Fredericksburg, TX
Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing Co

You should go with an over under if you choose to do sporting clay. Having the ability to change the choke for 1st and 2nd shot can be an advantage forgiven some of the target presentation on certain courses.

Shotguns are finicky in sense of fit. It isn’t the price or model or even make. You should try to get to local clubs when the manufacturers are there. You can test fire the gun and get a feel for the gun. You will need to be fitted as well.

My daughter tried a number of shotguns...including high dollar Kolars and Perazzi(I was secretly hoping she didn’t liked those). She knew right away they were not for her. For her, it was the Caesar Guerini that felt right. You need to try them to find your brand.

Enjoy!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Beanhead,

Another vote for First Stop in Rapid City, SD. They often liquidate collections for people.

quote:

Originally posted by YellowJacket:
First one that comes to mind is Steve Barnett's place in West Point, MS.
Also:
First Stop Guns in South Dakota
Chuck's Firearms here in Atlanta
Cauthen & Sons in Fredericksburg, TX
Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing Co

My short list includes two used models, looking for suggestions on these two, both 12ga.

1. Browning Citori Sport with adjustable comb, 30" barrel. About 8 years old.Very good condition.

2. Beretta 692 Sport with adjustable comb and B-Fast system. about 2 years old. Wood is a bit underwhelming in appearance but in very good condition.

Thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
My short list includes two used models, looking for suggestions on these two, both 12ga.

1. Browning Citori Sport with adjustable comb, 30" barrel. About 8 years old.Very good condition.

2. Beretta 692 Sport with adjustable comb and B-Fast system. about 2 years old. Wood is a bit underwhelming in appearance but in very good condition.

Thoughts?

The key here is the price. An 8 year old Citori should have an asking price at least 30-40% lower than the asking price of a 2 year old 692.

As for "underwhelming wood" you really can't expect spectacular wood until you get to about 4000 dollars for a new gun. On a used shotgun you can't expect grade 4 or higher on anything below 3000 dollars. Point is pretty wood is nice to look at but it won't do a thing to make you a better shooter. However the B-Fast stock can make it easier to get the ideal balance.

As someone shoots both Beretta and Browning I would choose the Browning for just one simple reason. That is that the Browning is probably already well broken in. Note, I'm old enough to find breaking in a new O/U to be a chore, with Beretta they are so stiff when new that there are times when you need to put the barrel under a leg to break it open.

My advice is to handle both guns and if possible spend some time shooting them. Then choose the gun that simply feels the "best" to you. Beyond that they are basically equal in terms of quality and capability.

I came across a used Browning Citori that has a Graco adjustable butt plate added, It is several hundred dollars less than other Citori's I have viewed. Should this be considered a good or bad addition?

I find this post intriguing. It can't be about just the cost. It must be about a shotgun that "fits" you. I've had Brownings, Winchester's, Remingtons, you name it. Beretta 686 and 687 fit me outta the box. If the gun doesn't fit, you will shoot it poorly..period. If possible, go try some different models.

Orvis has a neat little book, about 99 pages you should pick up. Like $5 on Amazon. Wing shooter guide or such. Read this book!

Good luck in your quest. Shotguns are one of my weaknesses.

Coleguns has some nice stuff to on the net.

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
1. Browning Citori Sport with adjustable comb, 30" barrel. About 8 years old.Very good condition.

Is there a model number with the Browning? As in 625 or 725 Sporting? Or maybe additional letters?

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
1. Browning Citori Sport with adjustable comb, 30" barrel. About 8 years old.Very good condition.

Is there a model number with the Browning? As in 625 or 725 Sporting? Or maybe additional letters?

He stated that it's an 8 year old Browning. Since the 725 came out in 2018 that means the 8 year old gun is a 625.

Colorado Hunter makes an excellent point, Fit is critical for shooting well. With any shotgun you want a fit that has the gun shooting "where you look". Mystery Misses are commonly due to a poor Fit or the bad habit of lifting your face off the stock so you can get a better "look" at the target. BTW, this particular habit is one I am currently struggling to conquer. Shot a new high score of 24 hits at Skeet recently with my 1992 Browning Citori and the reason for that was that I got in a groove where I wasn't trying to "peek" at the darned clay.

So, what do you do when you find you shoot your backup 12 gage better than the Beretta's you've invested in a bit heavily. What you do is purchase a factory replacement stock that will allow you to adjust for a better fit. BTW, that is a stock with an adjustable comb. In the case of my 12 gage that was a Factory "blem" for a model 682 Gold E. For my 20 gage it was an inletted stock for a 687 EL sideplate action. That was a bit of work, first I had to construct a filler block to epoxy into the Field stock to provide support for an adjustable comb kit, then I had to make up a filler for the inletting and then add a Walnut veneer to cover the seam around the inletting. The final step was cutting the comb free using a scroll saw and then mill out inletting for the Graco adjustable comb kit. Did a bit of shooting and testing today, which means working out of the back of my exotic sports car (Fiesta ST). Below is a pick with the 20 gage on the left and the 12 on the right. After shooting the 20 at skeet it became obvious I needed to spend time at the pattern board and the end result of that session is te comb is now 1/8 inch lower and kicked just a bit to the right. The 20 is now a no excuses shotgun, if I miss it's because I did not have the barrel pointed in the correct direction.



Point is that if you happen to fall into a deal like Armored posted about Fit is a matter of stock adjustment because both of his choices feature adjustable comb's.

Armored, that Graco Butt plate is something seen a lot on Skeet fields. Because Skeet shooters are extremists when it comes to Fit. So, a Skeet shooter will consider an adjustable butt plate a positive. Someone using a shotgun for hunting looks for light weight, so they won't like an addition that adds weight. So for a hunter that buttplate is a negative.

In your specific case I would place the value of an adjustable comb at a much higher point than an adjustable butt plate. Were I you I would go for the Browning with the adjustable comb in favor over the adjustable butt plate.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
1. Browning Citori Sport with adjustable comb, 30" barrel. About 8 years old.Very good condition.

Is there a model number with the Browning? As in 625 or 725 Sporting? Or maybe additional letters?

My mistake on the age then.
I was trying to read the serial number upside down from a picture to date it. Both guns are 725 Sport with adjustable comb. Both guns have the adjustable comb, one has a adjustable butt plate and adjustable comb.
Both guns are at Coles.

It's been a few years since I've been serious about clays, so this is from memory....

Browning's 725 is a noticeable re-design from the 425/525/625 line. The 725 was made more "Beretta-like" -- the receiver height was reduced, the weight was reduced, the weight balance point was moved slightly to the rear to be closer to the hinge pin, trigger was changed to mechanical.

I shot a couple of 725s -- at the end of local sporting clays tournaments, borrowing them from squad members who always seemed to have the latest shotgun models. The 725's balance is nice, however I think they took too much weight out for sporting clays competitions. Made the gun nicer to carry in the field, however. In competitions, the top shooters often add weight to their shotguns. I've handled some national-class guys whose guns weighed at least 9 pounds. I've handled skeet and trap guns that push 10 pounds.

I felt a little "scrunched up" for cheek weld with the 725 that didn't have the adjustable comb. The 725 with the adjustable comb was better. The adjustable comb model also weighed a few ounces more, which I think is better.

I didn't feel that the 725's mechanical triggers were any better than those in my three 525s. Early model 725 triggers were prone to locking up -- failure in a tournament isn't good. And yes, I saw it live -- one guy in the squad in front of mine, and another guy two squads away. I assume Browning fixed the trigger problem by now.

****
I've long felt that the Beretta 686 Gold E was one of the best Berettas for the money. By that I mean that the SO series and DT series Berettas are just amazing competition shotguns. I have very little time behind a Beretta 692 -- maybe 20 rounds -- but I felt it was better than any 686 that I've shot.

You didn't state the comparative cost of the shotguns you're considering. IMO the Beretta 692 should have a noticeably higher cost. You should shoulder any shotgun models prior to buying. Better yet, actually shoot one of that model type prior to buying.

If I decided to replace my Browning 525s, I would choose a Beretta 692 any day over a Browning 725. I might consider a Browning 625, but even a low-mileage 625 isn't in the league of a good 692.

I use a Beretta 686 for sporting clays and skeet, but I don't shoot a lot of skeet. This would not be a very good trap gun. It is also my dove gun. Like most have said, it is all about fit, and that gun fits nicely. You can get a plain-ish one used for a reasonable price.

In semi-autos, it is the Berettas that clay shooters use. I also have a Beretta semi (mine is about three generations old now), and it works for clays, but is clunkier in the hands than my 686. I also have a 1100 in 20 that is skeet choked, and that little gun is a blast to shoot skeet with. Very light and lively.

I have an older Citori, and my father-in-law's Superposed, but they are strictly field guns. They have shortish barrels and fixed chokes in good old improved/modified. They shoot nice, but aren't really clay guns at all.

The only time the ejected shells will bother other shooters is on the trap field, and your Ljutic already has you covered there.

Beretta 686 for me, in College I pulled Skeet Registered targets at various Skeet clubs in TX on some weekends for beer money and the vast majority of the competitors had Kriegoff ~K80's and Beretta's.

I bought a Beretta 686 years ago now and have not looked back.

If you are going to shoot competitively I think a Beretta is your choice. If you are going to hunt every so often then Browning.


Regarding places to look at shotguns, here locally is Briley and G. Gordy and Sons. Ables Ammo in Huntsville also has a large inventory of nice shotguns.

HK Ag