I've posted a few times in the past four months or so and you guys have given me ALOT of excellent guidance for scope selection. I've done a good amount of research in the mean time and have narrowed down my options to two scopes.

Schmidt & Bender PM II w/ P4F Reticle

http://www.opticsplanet.com/sc...smn-riflescopes.html

Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 w/MOAR-T Reticle

http://www.opticsplanet.com/ni...-nxs-riflescope.html

I'll be installing the scope on a LMT MWS308 for use as a precision scope. Mostly, I'll be shooting in the 100 to 300 yard range, (Since that's mostly what's available in my area.) but I want the ability to reach out to 1000 yards as I grow in my abilities.

I'm leaning towards the Nightforce because it seems to be competitive with the S&B in just about every category including glass clarity and functionality. I also like the clean, simple reticle.

I haven't completely crossed out the S&B because I've read reviews concerning the extremely high build quality, easy-to-use turrets, and 34mm tube. (Which I have heard affects the strength of the optics.). The big thing that keeps me from choosing this scope over the Nightforce is the busy reticle. It is a "first focal plane" reticle, as opposed to the "second focal plane" reticle on the Nightforce, but I am not sure if this offers me any advantage for how I am going to use the scope.

What do you guys think? I'm a "buy once, cry once" kind of person and these two scopes are at the top of my budget. I want a scope that I can grow into that will last a long time.

I see we have another one who failed to read the waiver as pertaining to avatar photos...

This is not 60x60!



As for your scope choices, I wouldn't use either.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
I see we have another one who failed to read the waiver as pertaining to avatar photos...

This is not 60x60!

You are the first person that I have seen who has a problem with my Avatar. Are you sure it isn't a setting on your computer??

The moderators on this forum run a pretty tight ship. If it was that big of a problem, I imagine I probably would have been notified long ago.

I'll be installing the scope on a LMT MWS308 for use as a precision scope. Mostly, I'll be shooting in the 100 to 300 yard range, (Since that's mostly what's available in my area.) but I want the ability to reach out to 1000 yards as I grow in my abilities.

Where the hell you got 300 up there? On base? I'm south in Richmond in if public, I'm on the way!

The NXS 5.5-22 is a fine scope but not one I prefer. At 22x mag the eye box gets a bit sensitive, being relatively unforgiving to head position. The field of view was also quite narrow at 22x. I found myself dialing back to around 15x to relieve the eye box and field of view challenges. Of course at 15x the reticle is no longer accurate for elevation or wind holds.

So if you are wanting to stay in the NXS price range instead I would purchase the NXS 3.5-15 which relieves those issues. For me it works great shooting steel out to 1000 yards without eye box sensitivity, field of view, or reticle accuracy issues with leaving it up at 15x power. I think you will find the 5.5-22 to be overkill for the 100-300 yard primary shooting that you have described.

If you are considering that S&B price range then I'd look at the NF ATACR 4-16 or 5-25 F1. With FFP you can dial down for closer targets/wider FOV and still have an accurate reticle running the higher power glass. I think the ATACR 4-16 would be pretty much an ideal fit for a .308 semi-auto like that LMT MWS. You will likely reach the limit of reliable hits on longer range targets due to muzzle velocity and accuracy before you run into limitations from the NXS 3.5-15 or ATACR 4-16 scopes on that rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett B:

So if you are wanting to stay in the NXS price range instead I would purchase the NXS 3.5-15 which relieves those issues. For me it works great shooting steel out to 1000 yards without eye box sensitivity, field of view, or reticle accuracy issues with leaving it up at 15x power. I think you will find the 5.5-22 to be overkill for the 100-300 yard primary shooting that you have described.

......You will likely reach the limit of reliable hits on longer range targets due to muzzle velocity and accuracy before you run into limitations from the NXS 3.5-15 or ATACR 4-16 scopes on that rifle.

Thanks Brett. While I'm willing to spend the "big bucks" I don't want to buy more than I can reasonably use. It looks like that 3.5-15 may be a good solution for what I am going to be doing. As Tompow indicated, there isn't much available for long range shooting in my area unless I go out to West Virginia.

If your type of "precision shooting" requires you to regularly make "holds", a second focal plane scope won't be fun for long. Your reticle subtensions won't be "true", except at a single magnification (typically the highest). You'll be doing a lot of mental gymnastics to figure out your required wind hold, or hold-over/-under if you need a quick adjustment.

quote:

Originally posted by Billy346:

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
I see we have another one who failed to read the waiver as pertaining to avatar photos...

This is not 60x60!

You are the first person that I have seen who has a problem with my Avatar. Are you sure it isn't a setting on your computer??

The moderators on this forum run a pretty tight ship. If it was that big of a problem, I imagine I probably would have been notified long ago.

Kindly explain to me how a setting on my computer has anything to do with you not following instructions? LOL

The page where you set your avatar clearly states "60x60", and your image is CLEARLY not 60x60.

Any other questions?

quote:

Originally posted by Billy346:
Schmidt & Bender PM II w/ P4F Reticle

Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 w/MOAR-T Reticle

These are quite different scopes. For starters, the S&B is first focal plane reticle with really good glass, and a premium price to match. The NF is second focal plane reticle with decent glass, with a somewhat reasonable cost.

I have the NF you list, and it's a good scope. The glass is clear, but it has a slightly blue-ish tint to my eye. Colors don't pop as they do in some scopes. IMO newer scopes have surpassed it. Nevertheless it is a quality scope that will last a lifetime or three.

In the NF line, IMO the discontinued F1 3.5-15x is best of the NSX line -- I have three of them. The glass is clearer and less blue. I must also state that my preferred game of steel/tactical matches makes a second focal plane reticle a no-go.

More comparable NF to S&B optics is the ATACR line. ATACR glass is a noticeable step up in quality from even the F1 3.5-15 NXS. I have a 5-25x ATACR in hand and another on order. Good chance I'll put a 4-16x ATACR on my upcoming precision trainer rifle.

If you want to stay with the price line of NSX you list, consider other brands -- maybe Vortex, maybe others. Hopefully other shooters weigh in. The true value line with NF is the F1 SHV 4-14x. I have one on a precision trainer rifle and am very pleased with its function.

I have to agree with fritz's assessment; I thought the scopes were vastly different, but one thing that caught my eye was the price of the PM II @ Optics Planet: $2600. Other places I checked showed over $3000.

The only NXS I ever owned is a 12-42X56 and while I like it fine, I never considered its glass to be excellent. It's very good glass, but definitely not S&B level.

About the only thing that I could see that were similar for the two scopes was the magnification range; 5.5-22X for one and 5-25X for the other. But the zoom ratios are different, the NXS is 4X and the S&B is 5X.

If those are the two finalists for a precision rifle scope, I would say the PM II takes it, walking, heck, running away. It's not even a competition.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by Billy346:
Schmidt & Bender PM II w/ P4F Reticle

Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 w/MOAR-T Reticle

These are quite different scopes. For starters, the S&B is first focal plane reticle with really good glass, and a premium price to match. The NF is second focal plane reticle with decent glass, with a somewhat reasonable cost.

I have the NF you list, and it's a good scope. The glass is clear, but it has a slightly blue-ish tint to my eye. Colors don't pop as they do in some scopes. IMO newer scopes have surpassed it. Nevertheless it is a quality scope that will last a lifetime or three.

In the NF line, IMO the discontinued F1 3.5-15x is best of the NSX line -- I have three of them. The glass is clearer and less blue. I must also state that my preferred game of steel/tactical matches makes a second focal plane reticle a no-go.

More comparable NF to S&B optics is the ATACR line. ATACR glass is a noticeable step up in quality from even the F1 3.5-15 NXS. I have a 5-25x ATACR in hand and another on order. Good chance I'll put a 4-16x ATACR on my upcoming precision trainer rifle.

If you want to stay with the price line of NSX you list, consider other brands -- maybe Vortex, maybe others. Hopefully other shooters weigh in. The true value line with NF is the F1 SHV 4-14x. I have one on a precision trainer rifle and am very pleased with its function.

Thanks. Others have mentioned that second focal plane scopes are a pain when you have to work with different zoom levels. So, if I want a NightForce scope with a 1st focal plane reticle, I'll have to go with the ATACAR line, which costs about the same as S&B. At this point, the only advantage NightForce has over S&B is the MOAR reticle, which is clean and does not dominate the view, as Schmid's P4F reticle does.

I did a little more research and found that Steiner's T5Xi 3-15X50 with the SCR reticle is a first focal plane scope that seems like its on par with NightForce's NXS line in terms of quality. Does anyone have an opinion on this model? I hear they had some problems with the first generation, which seem to have been resolved.

Any thoughts?

If you want a FFP Nightforce, but don't want to spend ATACR money, then look at the SHV 4-14x50 F1 that fritz mentioned. I have one on my Sako 300 Win Mag and I have been pleased with it. Good quality glass and accurate tracking, especially at that price point.

http://www.sportoptics.com/nig...fle-scopes-c556.aspx

No contest between the two optically, S&B easily the better of the two.

For me as never dial wind always hold wind guy...the P4F is way to coarse for precision holding with the first wind hash mark at 1 mil, suggest .5 mil minimum. There's been some deals floating around for the S&B with a Gen II XR reticle, suggest it over the P4F.

So, I take it the Steiner is a "No Go"?

Again, I'm not against spending the money on an Atacar or S&B, but I'm trying to get value for my purchase as well.

Let me just say that I am violently opposed to the concept of "buy once, cry once." As I have stated many times, when it comes to optics, it makes no sense.

It makes no sense, if you do not know EXACTLY the specifications and features that you need for your field of endeavor.

On the one hand you were looking at a high $ FFP scope and on the other its was a not-as-high $ SFP scope. Then people starting talking about different magnification ranges and you jumped in with a third scope, different from the other two.

You say that you will shoot from 100-300 yards but that you also want to hit at 1000 yards.

You gave no indication of the size of the target and the accuracy required or how the target will be setup.

Will you be competing in some type of matches? Or just shooting at ranges with set distances? What is the venue?

I don't want to give you a hard time here, but you're talking a significant amount of dollars and the decision process is a little shaky.

You might be much better served by buying a less expensive scope and learning about shooting at those distances and form an opinion about what you believe are the features and specifications you really need.

If you really want to burn that money now, then let me just get out of your way.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
Let me just say that I am violently opposed to the concept of "buy once, cry once." As I have stated many times, when it comes to optics, it makes no sense.

It makes no sense, if you do not know EXACTLY the specifications and features that you need for your field of endeavor.

On the one hand you were looking at a high $ FFP scope and on the other its was a not-as-high $ SFP scope. Then people starting talking about different magnification ranges and you jumped in with a third scope, different from the other two.

You say that you will shoot from 100-300 yards but that you also want to hit at 1000 yards.

You gave no indication of the size of the target and the accuracy required or how the target will be setup.

Will you be competing in some type of matches? Or just shooting at ranges with set distances? What is the venue?

I don't want to give you a hard time here, but you're talking a significant amount of dollars and the decision process is a little shaky.

You might be much better served by buying a less expensive scope and learning about shooting at those distances and form an opinion about what you believe are the features and specifications you really need.

If you really want to burn that money now, then let me just get out of your way.

I'm not offended at all! I use online forums to learn from people who know way more than me, and I'm not afraid to ask a stupid question or appear naive.

It is one thing to read up on scopes and to watch the YouTube pundits talk back and forth about the scopes, and it is quite another to hear from people with actual real world experience.

Perhaps I do not know as much as I thought I did. I'd rather find that out before dropping 2.5 G's on something that I did not actually need.

EXACTLY MY POINT.

We are happy to help you spend your money, but let's do it wisely. You saw my questions earlier, let's get the discussion rolling.

Let me give you an example of figuring out specs.

You say that you want to shoot at 1000 yards, so immediately some people will consider higher magnification. But you're shooting a 308 gasgun with what appears to be either a 16 or 18 inch barrel. Any type of precision at 1000 yards is just not going to happen, so that should not even factor in your decision process. You could put a 10X scope on there and you will be as accurate as if you used a 50X scope.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
Let me give you an example of figuring out specs.

You say that you want to shoot at 1000 yards, so immediately some people will consider higher magnification. But you're shooting a 308 gasgun with what appears to be either a 16 or 18 inch barrel. Any type of precision at 1000 yards is just not going to happen, so that should not even factor in your decision process. You could put a 10X scope on there and you will be as accurate as if you used a 50X scope.

My rifle is an LMT MWS 308 with the 20 inch barrel.

Let me clarify on how the rifle will actually be used. I want the ABILITY to reach out to 1000 yards, although 90% of the time, I will be shooting out to 300 yards or less. (The area that I live in just doesn't have a lot of open spaces, even in the country.) My 5.56 AR has a Steiner 1-4x and it gets me by just fine for just about everything I currently do.

I plan to use the LMT 308 rifle for Appleseed school, 3-gun matches, and for hunting. Hence wanting the ability to reach out if I need to.

I anticipate throwing this rifle around in the bush, so I want a rugged scope that I don't have to fret over smashing into a tree or rock. This is why I am looking at the more expensive models because they seem to be built for hard use.

Now we're cooking.

20 inches won't make much difference at 1000 yards with a maglength .308. We're still talking howitzer trajectory and the bullet going subsonic around 800 yards.

I have never been to an Appleseed school, I have no clue what they do, but others here have been and they can talk to it.

For hunting and 3 gun matches, I'm think you want a minimum magnification around 3 or 4X, with a top end in the low to mid teens.

On my AR-10b (T) with a 20 inch barrel, I use a 2.5-10X44 with illuminated reticle. It's a Nikon Tactical I bought 10+ years ago and it's built like a tank. I've hunted hogs at midnight with that scope and with its IR and Moonlight, I nailed a 285 pound hog running at full tilt right to left at 80 some paces. One 75gr Swift Scirocco II and it went down hard and stopped. The other guys couldn't see squat through their various scopes.

Others can talk to you about FFP and SFP, all my scopes are SFP.