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| Alea iacta est |
I see regardless your previous remarks, you did change your avatar. Thank you. Nikon has provided some valuable insight already. Not sure how closely you follow this rifle section, or if you know him, but his game is pin-point accuracy at 1000 yards on paper, with nearly unlimited time to take shots, on a square range, from the prone position. Oh, and don't forget sighter shots which aren't scored, but provide valuable feedback on conditions. While sounding easy, the difficult in his game is the DEGREE of accuracy required. Myself, fritz, and offgrid are PRS shooters. We shoot at targets of varying size, at varying distance, and not always from the most forgiving positions. We do not get sighter shots, we must hit a target with our first or second shot if we want any points at all. However, our degree of precision is much less than Nikon requires - our targets are anywhere from 1MOA to 3 MOA, on average. Nikon is aiming for a 1/2 MOA target, and wanting to keep 20 shots in that 1/2 MOA ring. Different games have different needs. Appleseed school, 3-gun matches, hunting, and 1000 yard target shooting are all VERY different applications, and if your goal is to try to perform all of those with a single rifle, any single rifle, you're going to not be happy - ESPECIALLY the one you've got. Don't get me wrong - LMT makes a damn fine weapon, but trying to hit anything at 1000 yards with a 20" gas gun is going to be an exercise in futility. Will you eventually hit something? Sure, throw enough lead and you'll eventually hit *something*. But if you think you're going to be able to plop down, aim, and hit something on your first or second shot, well, you're going to be sorely disappointed. If your goal really is a "do-all" type of gas gun, your best bet would be to sell the LMT and buy a GAP AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor or .260 or something similar. Far better ballistics, usually a 24" barrel, and it'll actually do what you're asking. Once you have a gun capable of what you want to do, then you can worry about the right scope to put on top of it. | |||
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| Steel banging beer snob  |
Lots of good information to help you on your way here already. I'll only add this, if 90% of your shooting is going to be inside 300 yards, that's how I'd select your optic. As others have wisely pointed out the rifle will be disappointing at 1K. I don't shoot PRS or F-class but choose FFP scopes. Simply because all my drops and wind holds are consistent across the magnification range. Lots of choices in optics out there and it can be daunting. You really need to be honest with yourself about the type of shooting, target size and how you are going to use this rifle. No one rifle will do it all. Happiness is having to climb in your car to change your target. | |||
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| Retired, laying back and enjoying life  |
Lots of good information has been passed on to you here and I have learned a lot reading and following these guys words. I would like to offer you another perspective to your search for a scope. I do not compete in any type of events but I do a lot of long range semi precision shooting every year in the prairie dog fields of South Dakota. Right now my usual targets are the dogs at the 800 yard range and beyond. My gun is a custom built with a NF ATACR sitting on it. I didn't start out at those ranges or with that equipment. I started out with an out of the box Savage Accu-trigger in 223 with a NC Star for glass shooting at dogs between 50 and 200 yards. As I progressed in ability and knowledge I acquired equipment commensurate with those abilities and that knowledge. So my advise to you is to back up a little and get a scope that compliments your rifle, your shooting abilities and you targets. There are lots of moderately priced scopes out there that you can get that right now offer more in features than you can take advantage of but will make a great teaching tool. As you progress then you can upgrade accordingly. Freedom comes from the will of man. In America it is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment | |||
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Thanks for all of the help guys. As I said earlier, the amount of information and the plethora of different scopes out there is quite daunting to the beginner. I really appreciate all of your input, even when it goes counter to what I was initially planning. As you guys know, relying on the advice of gun store proprietors or YouTube pundits can be contradictory and even confusing. I am glad that I have a "brain trust" in you guys to consult for the real deal. "Like a horse has its rider, and the sky has its moon, a man has his loneliness, mistaken as pride." -Longmire | |||
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| Alea iacta est |
If you still want to stick with that gun and work toward advancing your skills, I would recommend something in the lower magnification ranges like a 1-6, a 1-8, or a 2.5-10 or similar. I say that because 2 of the 3 applications you mention (3 gun and hunting) generally do not need a ton of magnification, and benefit from a wide fov. Once you have become proficient at that, I would sit down and be honest with yourself about whether or not you want to shoot 1000 yards, how often you'll do it, and then decide how much money you can afford to throw at it. I would recommend borrowing a friend's rifle that is already capable (whatever that may be) and trying it out. Some people don't like it, don't find it interesting for whatever reason. I don't know, maybe they prefer the faster pace of multiple engagements closer, like 3 gun offers. If you decide to do it, come back with a budget for a whole setup, and decide what type of game you'll be playing, and then we can get much more specific. Again, both Nikon and I shoot at targets at the same distances, but my rifle would work poorly in his application, and his would work poorly in mine. Right tool for the job and all that. Right now, you have too many jobs listed. Someone on here once said about ARs: trying to build one rifle to do everything will only ensure it does none of the things well. | |||
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If only there was a riflescope primer that one could consult to help figure out the various features and parts of a riflescope and how they influence the price and apply to various shooting endeavors. | |||
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I read it and it helped a lot. I guess what I was trying to work through was what kind of scope is going to work for how I am going to use it. You guys helped me do that. "Like a horse has its rider, and the sky has its moon, a man has his loneliness, mistaken as pride." -Longmire | |||
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Well, I think that if you just eliminate the idea of shooting with any kind of precision at 1000 yards, you should be able to focus (pun intended) on the things that are important to you for this rifle. It's interesting to note that I never mentioned F-class in any of my posts on this thread, the only rifle I talked about is one that is very similar to yours in caliber, action, barrel length, etc. I don't shoot that rifle at 1000 yards. I have other rifles for that and they are VERY different in every respect save one, from the one we're discussing here. The common factor is the caliber, they are .308. The Nikon Tactical 2.5-10X44 is an excellent complement for my AR-10b. I feel quite confident that with the handloads I feed it, I can get the accuracy I would need from it easily up to 400 yards and then I would have to apply myself for the next few hundred yards before I simply don't shoot it. With a zero at 250yards, anything between 0 to 300 yards would be inside of 4 inches up or down, holding dead on. If I really needed even tighter inside 100 yards, I can aim a shade low. Easy peasy. | |||
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1000 yards -- at or near sea level, unless you're using very slippery bullets, this ain't happening. I've seen a 22" bolt gun in cool weather in Texas not being able to shoot past 900 yards because of bullet yaw. The Hornady 168 AMax and SMK 175 bullets went from a a reasonable pattern at 800 yards, to not-so-pretty patterns at 900 yards, to not even being able to hit the backstop at 1,000 yards. You do not have the right gun for this distance. I haven't shot a formal Appleseed event, but I have practiced the course of fire with their targets with an AR-15. Appleseed recommends a 22lr rifle, with a secondary choice of a .223 rifle. An AR-10 will be a challenge. IMO you don't have the right gun for this discipline -- with the possible exception of the full-length Appleseed shoots. 3-gun matches -- an AR-10 is good to go for the he-man classes. It will be a challenge to hang with the AR-15s. Hunting use is good with your AR-10. Punching paper steel to 300 yards is good with your AR-10. I recommend a scope with max power of no more than 15-ish. For hunting you will want relatively low power on the low end -- say something in the 2x to 4x. A 2x-10x variable will be good for hunting. Punching paper or steel targets out to 300 will be better served with a scope in the 3x-15x ballpark. | |||
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Nikonuser and fritz- Excellent responses. This is exactly the information that I have been looking for! "Like a horse has its rider, and the sky has its moon, a man has his loneliness, mistaken as pride." -Longmire | |||
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As Fritz says, this is not a rifle you want to use for an Appleseed event. I mean, you can if you want to. They won't stop you. However, you are handicapping yourself and you will piss off everyone else on the line. Some of the evolutions require going from standing to sitting or standing to prone, magazine changes, etc. and still being able to shoot a required number of targets in a set time. You are going to be sore enough at the end of everyday, without having to lug a full size battle rifle around I know they have cut down the number of rounds fired now but when I attended Appleseed events, we used in excess of 600 rounds every time. I really wouldn't want to be laying next to a guy who is going to fire 500/600 rounds of .308 over a weekend. The basic rifle skills taught by Appleseed are transferable to different calibers. So just take the 10/22 and be done with it. Your shoulder will be happier and so will everyone else on the line. | |||
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Billy346: I carefully read through all of the replies and there is some very good advice in them. Several people on this forum for whom I have the utmost respect have replied BUT I am about to contradict some of them. I have an LMT MWS308 with the 20” stainless steel barrel. My shooting environment is much like yours. I have a range that facilitates 370 yard shots and I have a friend that has a 1000 yard range. I also have a few NXS 5.5-22 scopes and a 5-20 SHV scope. Admittedly, I acquired these scopes quickly—faster than I would have if I possessed the experience I have today. It is important to note that, for me, all of this is just for fun. I do not compete and have no plans to do so in the next 5 years. Too many children and too little time. My local range does offer monthly 600 yard NRA match that I have often been tempted to enter but have not done so yet. I get to shoot at the 1000 yard range about twice per month. There are steel targets set up every 100 yards. I have learned through experience that dialing for distance is not good. It is slow and potentially inaccurate. You can use one of these second focal plane scopes for holdovers but only at maximum magnification and they only offer about 25 MOA of enumerated holdovers. Back to the rifle. My LMT will easily shoot out to 1000 yards with 175 gr SMKs that are hand loaded and remain supersonic—but only just. My LMT is easily a .7 MOA rifle and can hold 1.5 MOA out to 1000. The 175 gr. SMK does transition through subsonic relatively gracefully as I have tried some lower charge rate shots. This rifle still wears the NXS 5.5-22 scope and I have recorded all of the holds until I get to the end of the reticle’s markings and then I dial 10 MOA into the scope and keep going out to 1000. This works for me. With either of the NXS or SHV, I can clearly see the 1000 yard (I shoot from prone) target at max magnification and have not had an issue with the eye box being too small or unforgiving. So the big question—would I purchase any of those scopes again today? I would purchase the SHV which sits on a vary similar to the MWS, LaRue PredatOBR. That scope has very bright and clear glass and though it is not a FFP scope, the price was awesome and I mostly use it between 100 and 370 yards. I have a Burris XTR II 5-25 FFP scope that has noticeably less bright and clear glass when compared to any of the Nightforce models I own and a much tighter eye box. Additionally that scope gets significantly darker when you look through the bottom of it when using the lowest subtensions for holdovers but, this scope has taught me the value of a FFP scope. I do have a cheat sheet but I can hit the targets from 100 to 1000 yards very quickly without dialing a thing. It is very fast and the only mistake to make is misreading the the cheat sheet which I almost have memorized for all distances. At my age 50++ I need more than 14 or 16 power. I would not buy an expensive scope that had less than 20X power. Plenty of people would disagree but I like to see the impacts through the scope. I am not going to end this with a recommendation other to say that I am very very interested in the ATACR 7-35 FFP and as soon as my will power fails, I will have one for shooting between 600 and 1000 yards. One last comment. The MWS is a lot of rifle for an Appleseed. The problem I have shooting a .308 at regular Appleseed events (not the Known Distance — KD — events) is time. There are two stages where you have a minute +/- a few seconds to get off 10 rounds at 2 and 3 targets with a transition to kneeling and transition to prone with a magazine change and getting back on target after the recoil really is difficult for me in the time allotted. Hope that helps and sorry for the length… Henryrifle | |||
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Henryrifle- Thanks for your input. The information that I have gleaned from others in this forum has been invaluable. I'll take your advice on using something like a 10/22 for the appleseed events. It sounds much more cost effective and friendly to other shooters. I'll have to pick up a 22 one of these days. Oddly enough I don't own one. Thankfully, after purchasing the LMT, I have no money left to purchase a new scope immediately, so I am spending time learning and researching before buying. I've been considering several different scopes, and I've narrowed it down to three very different options. These could change as I learn more: 1. Nightforce ATACR 4-16X42 F1 Scope. Its built tough with plenty of magnification for what I would need, and it has flexibility for use as a hunting scope or a long distance scope. 2. Nightforce NXS 2.5-10X42 IHR Scope. This one offers less magnification, but it has a simple reticle that I think would be of good use for hunting. Its still well built and can be transferred to a bolt action hunting rifle if I ever want to put a different scope on the LMT. 3. Trijicon Accupower 2.5-10X56. This one costs about 1/3 of the NXS and 1/4 the cost or the ATACR but it seems to do just about everything I want it to do at an attractive price. My only concern is ruggedness in comparison to the Nightforce. At this point, I may end up with something completely different, but those are the ones I'm currently looking at. Time will tell. "Like a horse has its rider, and the sky has its moon, a man has his loneliness, mistaken as pride." -Longmire | |||
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This probably going to shred any credibility that I may have but it really does work. I have a Bushnell AR 308 Optics 4.5-18X40 Dropzone scope mounted in a Burris P.E.P.R. mount that I use on a lot of new rifles to break them in and give me time to decide which optic they will end up with. You can find both of these components for less than $275 if you take advantage of coupons and sales. There is obviously nothing special or remarkable about this scope but for 100-300 yard work I have found mine to be reliable on SCARs, LMT 308s, LaRue PredatOBRs, Remington 700s and more. I keep it in my range bag as a backup scope or a loaner scope. Many guests have used it at the range to good effect. Not trying to take this discussion in a different direction but only to offer a very inexpensive solution to get you going... I really do believe a .22 is the right tool for Appleseed. Henryrifle P.S. Which 20" barrel is on your LMT? The Chrome or Stainless barrel? | |||
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I love it! An inexpensive "starter" scope. That's not a bad idea, actually. I believe my MWS has the stainless barrel. "Like a horse has its rider, and the sky has its moon, a man has his loneliness, mistaken as pride." -Longmire | |||
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ATACR 4-16x F1 is a good scope. I've only looked through one unmounted, however the glass was good. The ATACR line is a noticeable step up from previous NF scopes. The eyebox on my ATACR 5-25x is a little tight at higher magnification levels -- don't know about the 4-16x. I have a couple of its predecessor models, the 3.5-15x F1. The eyebox on them is pretty forgiving. I had one on a bolt action I used in steel matches for out to 1400 yards. It worked just fine. 4-16x for your given distances will be fine, too. Compact 2.5-10x is a good scope, with clear glass. I have it with MOA reticle. The IHR reticle is definitely aimed at hunting applications. The reticle has very limited holdover/windage capabilities -- I recall maybe 3 MOA and 6 MOA. The glass on the 2.5-10x won't be as nice as that on the ATACR line, but it's still quality glass. I know nothing about that Trijicon model. I have been told that NF elevators are among the most robust on the market. Tracking ability is likely the number one scope killer in steel/tactical matches, as we are constantly dialing up and down elevation. In some matches I suspect we dial more in a weekend than the average shooter does in an entire lifetime of scope usage on multiple rifles. I have seen virtually every major brand of scope lose its tracking ability in matches, but not a NF. Last year I didn't latch my Pelican hard case after I put the rifle back in its foam slot. When I got home from shooting that evening, I pulled the case from my SUV, grabbing the case by its carry handle. Ruh-roh, the case opened at a bad time. The rifle performed a beautiful half-twisting 20-22" dive onto the concrete, with 17 pounds of rifle landing square on the NF 3.5-15x F1 parallax knob. Parts went flying. #$*@%+^&!!!! Off to NF for repairs. Turns out nothing was damaged but the outer aluminum cap that holds the illumination battery. Even before I sent the scope in for repairs, parallax adjustment worked and illumination worked if I held the battery in the right place. My sheep-dip moment could have easily bent the main tube and destroyed the elevator system. But the scope works. I practiced with this scope on my 308 last weekend without issues. It's tough for me to consider any scope but NF at this time. | |||
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Sold. Nightforce it is! "Like a horse has its rider, and the sky has its moon, a man has his loneliness, mistaken as pride." -Longmire | |||
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| Middle children of history  |
These are both great choices that are well suited to the rifles capabilities. If you were planning to use your MWS as more of a target shooter, and you don't care as much about the extra weight, then I think the ATACR 4-16X42 F1 is about perfect for a precision .308 gas gun with a 16" or 20" barrel. I have the NF NXS 2.5-10x42 MOAR on my SCAR 17 SBR that I use for hog hunting and target shooting out to about 700 yards. Tracking is dead on when dialing for elevation. It's one of my favorite scopes as the glass is so easy to get behind. It has a nice wide field of view on 2.5x. Clarity at 10x is excellent, the eye box is still very forgiving, and the side focus is useful for minimizing parallax issues. The illumination is great for low light hunting, especially being able to switch to the dim green nightvision mode so your sight picture isn't washed out. I really like the MOAR reticle and have not found it too cluttered for hunting at all. I have shot the IHR on a 2.5-10x32 and didn't find it any faster or more intuitive than my MOAR reticle. It's my preferred reticle that I use across multiple NF scopes so I am used to it. If you plan to carry the rifle much distance on hunts (I hike quite a bit with my SCAR) I would go the 2.5-10x42 route since it only weighs 20oz vs 30oz for that ATACR. Some fun SCAR w/Nightforce pics are below, this scope fits with this rifle's use very well.    | |||
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I owned a Premier 5-25 that was incredible. Tangent Theta is now making those scopes with a few improvements. They are super expensive, but very very tough and super glass. Their 3-15x50 would be an excellent all around scope. These are considered to be the best rifle scopes ever made, a step above S&B. http://tangenttheta.com/products http://www.eurooptic.com/tange...ticle-800100-00.aspx -c1steve | |||
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Brett B- Looks like you're helping me get warmer. Is your NXS 2.5-10x42 the old FFP version? "Like a horse has its rider, and the sky has its moon, a man has his loneliness, mistaken as pride." -Longmire | |||
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