quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:

quote:

The downside to 223/556 is the deafening sound blast if not supressed. Much louder indoors or out than 9mm.

not in any meaningful way according to the data I see. In any case you should put on amplified hearing protection at the same time you pick up the gun (I keep mine attached to the rifle). It is a tactical advantage you should use...

Electronic noise canceling muffs are your friend. I don't know about the data on that site claiming 45 ACP is louder than 5.56. What I do know is training on an indoor range surrounded by pistol shooters can easily be handled with standard muffs in the 30 DB range. When we went to carbines you needed either double plugs or some kind of noise canceling technology. I was right next to a guy with a 9mm AR, and it wasn't any louder than his pistol. Also, 5.56 indoors produces a shockwave that can slap you if your firing line isn't straight. All you need is to be a half step in front of someone and you can feel it.

quote:

Originally posted by Minnow:

quote:

Originally posted by Rolan_Kraps:
Depends on where in the house I am. But yes, I would be good with a 9mm for home defense.

I agree.

Rolan, who makes that charging handle you have on your Scorpion EVO?

Minnow, it comes from HBI. Here's a link. https://hbindustries.net/store...ded-charging-handle/

How reliable is your PCC or AR?

For many folks, the local indoor range which doesn't allow rifle caliber weapons may be the only option to actually shoot the device.

I'd far rather trust a tool through which I have put several hundred rounds.

I have sometimes colt 10.5 9mm suppressed 145 / 147 subsonic specials. I.r. laser and n.v goggles.
Or a 11.5 5.56 suppressed 100 grain prefragmented subsonic plus the Hornady 75 sb load. Either works just depending on how close other home s and kids are. Local 's leo. is 20 plus on response if available. BUT I can do same with a shotgun and not have to listen to local idiots. (News Papers & d.a office ) if drop a home invaders or ventilated by using a gasp ar15.

Little too much hipsterism in this thread for my taste.

I'll say I prefer my Sub2k to my 870.

quote:

Originally posted by GregY:
Little too much hipsterism in this thread for my taste.

Da fuc?

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:

quote:

Originally posted by GregY:
Little too much hipsterism in this thread for my taste.

Da fuc?

As the OP, I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, either. I've appreciated all the analysis prior to that useless comment.

quote:

Originally posted by GregY:
Little too much hipsterism in this thread for my taste.

I'll say I prefer my Sub2k to my 870.

I'm not sure anyone here is wearing skinny jeans.

What are you trying to say?

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
For many folks, the local indoor range which doesn't allow rifle caliber weapons may be the only option to actually shoot the device.

Not a rifle guy, but I have given some serious thought to getting a PCC primarily for this reason. I have a lot more range options with a PCC than a rifle.

A pistol caliber carbine is absolutely the tool that the majority of home defenders SHOULD be using. Much better than a pistol, and likely more reliable than a pistol, in most peoples hands, that are likely to limp wrist or jam due to lack of experience firing pistols.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
A pistol caliber carbine is absolutely the tool that the majority of home defenders SHOULD be using. Much better than a pistol, and likely more reliable than a pistol, in most peoples hands, that are likely to limp wrist or jam due to lack of experience firing pistols.

I most strenuously disagree.

Guys.

The bottom line is use what works for you.

Bubbatime is correct, by the way. It's why we have the M1 Carbine. Long guns are easier to use. They require less training and experience than a handgun.

If you're going to "strenuously disagree," be a sport and tell us why. Simply telling someone you disagree is irrelevant, particularly on a discussion board.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
They require less training and experience than a handgun.

I strenuously agree.

One of the odd things that fortunately seems to be changing in recent times is the policy of some LE agencies’ restricting which officers can be armed with rifles or requiring extensive training to do so. Training is good, and if an agency can afford a dedicated 40 hour course for everyone issued a patrol rifle, great, but it’s far easier to teach a novice to be safe and accurate with an AR than it is with a handgun.

Long guns have their disadvantages for certain tasks such as operating in confined spaces, and therefore may not be best for home defense if it’s necessary to go looking for a possible intruder. Even some police SWAT teams are reemphasizing handgun skills for that reason. But that doesn’t mean that a rifle isn’t the best possible personal defense weapon in appropriate situations.

You're assuming a level of training and proficiency for everyone in the home. Many folks reading may be the only person in the home proficient in firearms, and for the untrained and younger set, a carbine is an excellent choice.

The right answer is choose a gun, make sure everyone in the home is familiar with and comfortable using it. A pistol caliber carbine will do the job just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bubbatime:
A pistol caliber carbine is absolutely the tool that the majority of home defenders SHOULD be using. Much better than a pistol, and likely more reliable than a pistol, in most peoples hands, that are likely to limp wrist or jam due to lack of experience firing pistols.

I agree with you guys. I use a rifle made by TNW firearms in 45acp. It has a 16 inch barrel and only weighs 5.6 lbs & is semi auto. It is fast on target & very accurate. I have had many years experiance with hand guns but I prefer this carbine over the hand gun.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
You're assuming a level of training and proficiency for everyone in the home. Many folks reading may be the only person in the home proficient in firearms, and for the untrained and younger set, a carbine is an excellent choice.

The right answer is choose a gun, make sure everyone in the home is familiar with and comfortable using it. A pistol caliber carbine will do the job just fine.

Yup!
Shotgun
AR
Pistol
PCC
Throwing stars

Doesn’t matter, much more important that you know how to use it and have a basic plan of what you will do.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
A pistol caliber carbine is absolutely the tool that the majority of home defenders SHOULD be using. Much better than a pistol, and likely more reliable than a pistol, in most peoples hands, that are likely to limp wrist or jam due to lack of experience firing pistols.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Guys.

The bottom line is use what works for you.

Bubbatime is correct, by the way. It's why we have the M1 Carbine. Long guns are easier to use. They require less training and experience than a handgun.

If you're going to "strenuously disagree," be a sport and tell us why. Simply telling someone you disagree is irrelevant, particularly on a discussion board.

Very well, here goes. Just so people know I'm a retired MP. I have no combat experience, but I do have over a decade of experience employing everything up to a belt fed weapons in MOUT\CQB\FISH environments. I've also worked the road, made traffic stops, and responded to incidents while armed with a pistol\rifle\shotgun. I've also been involved in the training end in both static ranges and in the MOUT\CQB\FISH environments. I've worked with all kinds of troops over the years, and seen all kinds of different levels of skill. The one thing I've seen is pistol skills are just not all that hard to aquire. My opinion is most people don't have them because they never attend any kind of real training. I've taken Soldiers who had no handgun training and by the end of one day they can safely operate a handgun. They aren't going to be expert level shooters, but they aren't a danger to themselves either.

Now how does this play into my most strenuous disagreement? While most gun owners never take a home defence course involving pistols, they don't take one for long arms either. They don't practice how to enter a room using a stand off from the doorway so the barrel of their gun isn't the first thing someone sees as they enter the room. They don't train to slice the room pie style while observing for shadows or other irregularities that may reveal that someone is in there. They don't train in off hand weapon manipulation and switching shoulders in case it's impractical to enter a room either right or left handed. Long arms by their design are two handed weapons. You can't keep full control of a rifle or shotgun if you're opening doors or herding family members out of the way. You also can't point any weapon light at something without muzzling what you might not want to shoot. With a handgun you can use a secondary light to illuminate whatever you want without breaking one of the cardinal rules of firearm safety.

Now to the reliability issue. While I would agree that it's just about impossible to limp wrist a long arm, modern handguns are a reliable product. The only handguns I've see have multiple malfunctions in training courses I've taken have either been ammunition or magazine related. I've never seen repeated limp wristing malfunctions. I'm involved in training at the private range I belong to, and I shoot weekly in the warmer months with a group of 20 or so shooters. I've been involved with this group for three or four years, and I've seen some of these shooters go from barely being able to keep up to being able to execute multi target drills involving magazine changes and movement. You want to know what I almost never see? Limp wristing malfunctions.

What does all of this tell me? While it may be easier to teach long arm drills, pistol drills just aren't all that difficult. Most people just don't spend the time to get even the most basic of training, and it shows.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
I'm not sure anyone here is wearing skinny jeans.

I dunno, sometimes we just get tired of Crye Precision combat pants in field matches -- all that digital camo, bunches of pockets, and a functional cut. Them thar skinny jeans are sleeker and more aerodynamic. I believe Billy Ocean once sang something about painted on jeans...

I'm sure most like me have cycled thru several weapons in the *keep this closest to the bed* category. I almost always come back to the .357 S&W revolver. I do have a scorpion, have a light mounted and at one point walked around my house with it. Too big to navigate my home properly with and still open doors and be fairly quiet. I've done the same with a 10.5" 5.56 pistol. For me the pistol will continue to be my go-to.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
I almost never see? Limp wristing malfunctions.

Interesting you mention that. There are YouTube videos of people trying to cause malfunctions with SIG Classic line pistols by shooting them with minimal support and I’ve experimented the same myself without making it happen. I recently ran a qualification session for an agency that had just transitioned to new Glocks. I planned to caution the shooters about Glocks’ reputation for weak grip malfunctions and how it’s necessary to “lock” one’s wrist when shooting them (however one does that). To demonstrate what I was going to talk about, though, I first had everyone fire their guns with some wimpy training ammo while holding their pistols as “limply” as possible. I even had them bend their wrists so they would be completely unlocked.

The result? Not a single malfunction in the entire group. Hmm …. I guess we won’t talk about limp wrist failures after all.