So much energy, work, and money put into developing a bullpup rifle that can be fired off both shoulders...when there are so many more traditional, less complicated options that can already do this. Don't get me wrong...the tech is cool, and given the opportunity I'd love to try one, just for the heck of it. But why would a country like Iraq spend the money on this complex thing that's going to be expensive, difficult to maintain, difficult to supply parts for, and clearly (from the videos) difficult to train on...in comparison with readily available platforms that their people are already familiar with and they have pre-existing support for? You'd think some kind of modernized AK variant, or even an AR given our prolonged presence there, would make a ton more sense than this????

I can see the Croatian military adopting it as it's a domestic product, but there had to be some serious back-door shenanigans going on to land that Iraq deal, because there's no way this was the best choice functionally, financially, or logistically.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I can see the Croatian military adopting it as it's a domestic product, but there had to be some serious back-door shenanigans going on to land that Iraq deal, because there's no way this was the best choice functionally, financially, or logistically.

When I read that Iraq had adopted it I pretty much had the same thought. I can see the country of origin adopting it (national pride) but foreign military sales? Of a bullpup? Who does that?

The bullpup design was the future in the 70's but today, after so many other platforms have matured and been tested in real world situations (I'm looking at you AR/AK variants).

Makes no sense.

I think the Hellion is about the only special/different/unique thing to come out of the Shot Show new product announcement season. I don't really care for a bullpup; I had an AUG, and liked it, but don't miss it; but it is cool to see something like that imported/released, when it's not a current trend. Everything else that's been released, that I have seen, seems trivial and redundant.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
but foreign military sales? Of a bullpup? Who does that?

Steyr with the AUG
FN with the F2000
St. Etienne with the FAMAS
Enfield with the SA80
IWI with the Tavor
ST Engineering with the SAR21
etc.

quote:

Everything else that's been released, that I have seen, seems trivial and redundant.

Agreed, and there's some truth to this. I got to go to the NRA convention a few years back when it was in Indy, and I remember thinking that it was just one AR booth after another. I had a short list of things that I wanted to put hands on (Kimber K6, Sig P320 X-grip that came out that year, and a couple of optics), but overall the whole show was basically thousands of booths full of striker-fired handguns and AR-15s.

So I do applaud SA for bringing out something different, and I think it's working for them so far in that they're getting a lot of press. I hope it does well for them and they sell a few, too (which is going to require them actually putting them on shelves, which is more than they've done with the SA-35...I've been looking for months in 4 different states, am on the call list at my LGS who's had them on order since they came out, and still haven't seen one in person), but they've got it priced way out of my reach, especially for something that would serve no purpose to me other than a range toy. I definitely wouldn't hesitate to play with one, though, given the opportunity!

My LGS had one SA35 come through, when they first released it, but has yet to see another. A distributor rep told them the other day that SA said they're waiting on parts, and won't be able to produce more for at least another 60 days. I agree that they'd do well to avoid that same formula, with the Hellion; it seems quite similar though, so far.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
My LGS had one SA35 come through, when they first released it, but has yet to see another. A distributor rep told them the other day that SA said they're waiting on parts, and won't be able to produce more for at least another 60 days. I agree that they'd do well to avoid that same formula, with the Hellion; it seems quite similar though, so far.

The SA-35 is made by SAI in the US, whereas the Hellion is made by HS Produkt in Croatia and imported into the US by SAI.

Not saying that there can't be supply chain disruptions out there that would affect Hellion production, but it's a different supply chain for a different company in a different country than SA-35 production.

I am aware of the different origins, and the resulting likely incomparable production situations. I am just saying the overall availability is seeming similar so far; potentially worse for the Hellion. It burns my toast, when a company isn't really ready to release something, but they do anyway. Even if I don't want the damn thing, I still find it annoying.

^^ FWIW, they do have to be 922(r)'d before being released on the market, so some US supply chain or another may be involved.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I can see the Croatian military adopting it as it's a domestic product, but there had to be some serious back-door shenanigans going on to land that Iraq deal, because there's no way this was the best choice functionally, financially, or logistically.

Not necessarily. For a little while, there, the biggest driver of availability and pricing of AKs in the US was demand in the Middle East. At the time, Zastavas were absolute rock stars (see news pictures of the Suadi/Yemen conflict). Those guys were pretty much buying anything that could be reasonably expected to shoot and international politics meant that they couldn't necessarily get them from Russia or Communist China.

I like a good bullpup. My Tavors have been reliable and they are handier than an AR in the house without losing the 16 inch barrel.

I don’t see this as being “better” than the Tavor but I do like some of their design choices. The ability to easily swap the bolt lefty/righty is ingenious. The BUIS seem just about perfect. The forend is just right. My Tavor with it’s bulbous and proprietary forend sucks by comparison.

I disagree with the “hard to maintain” crowd. You guys ever break a short stroke piston? They are heavy but they are robust as well. I would bet you have to work hard to break one. Reliable too.

Once the initial uproar dies down and prices return to msrp I will probably pick one up.

I love AR’s and it’s a tough platform to beat but bullpup hate is real and kind of surprising. I wouldn’t want one for long range matches. You can make an AR run circles around these but for shorter stuff and in tight spaces these shine without giving up 5 inches of ballistics. For a house gun this would be the tits. 8 lbs? Who cares in your house? I also think that the Tavor, while heavier than my AR’s, carries lighter in some ways. Yes it’s heavier but the weight back in the rear offsets the extra weight by feeling less heavy than the reality of the scale. I don’t know if that makes sense or is just a long winded way to talk about differing balance.

Me like.

Looks like there was some ripping off of the Kel-Tec RDB going on there.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Looks like there was some ripping off of the Kel-Tec RDB going on there.

If there was any ripping off happening, it'd necessarily be the other way around, with the RDB being the one ripping off the Hellion/VHS.

The VHS-1 was initially designed back in the late 1990s and early 2000s and first released in 2003, then updated in 2013 to its current VHS-2 form.

Whereas the RDB was just designed and released in 2015, several years after the 2nd Gen VHS-2 was already in production, and close to two decades after the 1st Gen VHS-1 was initially designed.

This isn't a new rifle design... just being newly imported into the US.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Looks like there was some ripping off of the Kel-Tec RDB going on there.

If there was any ripping off happening, it'd necessarily be the other way around, with the RDB being the one ripping off the Hellion/VHS.

The VHS-1 was initially designed back in the late 1990s and early 2000s and first released in 2003, then updated in 2013 to its current VHS-2 form.

Whereas the RDB was just designed and released in 2015, several years after the 2nd Gen VHS-2 was already in production, and close to two decades after the 1st Gen VHS-1 was initially designed.

This isn't a new rifle design... just being newly imported into the US.

No grip zone? It'll never work.

Bigbuck5 and ZSMICHAEL both beat you to that joke 2 weeks ago on Pages 1 and 2.

Nobody reads a thread anymore. It’s already been stated that Kel Tec made theirs after HS Produkts. This gun whether you like it or not isn’t some beta test candidate. It’s been around for quite awhile. And combat tested. Yes the videos of Iraqi troop shooting it while holding it outstretched over their heads while huddling behind cover is funny. You can find the same videos of Middle Eastern troops doing the same thing with every style of rifle they have ever used. There is a reason they haven’t won a war since the Crusades.

This rifle is a great SBR without SBR drawbacks.

My LGS got one in and I picked it up today. My first impression is that it’s in the nice, but not great category. The biggest problem for me is the trigger. Bullpup triggers, in general, aren’t that good, so it’s not a total surprise, but this one is a bit more annoying for me. Usually bullpup triggers are simply heavy, but this one has a very long light take up and then the actual trigger pull is long and spongy. On the plus side, the FCU is a self contained easily removable unit, so it seems likely that someone would be able to make a superior replacement. The safety levers are stiff and are up a bit too high. Seems like the angle of the lever could be lower and still not hit the top of your hand when in the fire position. I suspect the position is due the the military full auto version having an addition position and they needed to make the safe position where it is to prevent the lever hitting your hand in the auto position. Also, don’t like that there doesn’t seem to be a way to manually lock the bolt back, although there is a manual bolt release. On the plus side, I like the adjustable gas block with a suppressor position, and the flip up sights look nice, although I’ve found that they are lower than AR height, so they won’t cowitness with anything, except maybe a low mount. The gun also has swappable ejection with no need to buy a separate other side bolt (I’m looking at you Steyr and IWI), and an adjustable stock, although unless you have really long arms, the fully retracted, or 1 notch (of 5), is going to be good for most people.

Overall, I think it’s well designed and made, but my initial feeling is that it’s a bit overpriced at the $2K MSRP. It’s an interesting design and something different, but not any game changer IMHO.

There isn’t a lot of game changers out there. If it’s better than my Tavors I will probably get one. There is no manual bolt catch. Either you lock back on an empty mag or there is a “trick” where you pull back the bolt, reach inside and flip the lever manually. Not exactly ideal. This screams out for a good trigger pack. Yay, another 200 dollars on a 2000 dollar rifle.

quote:

This gun whether you like it or not isn’t some beta test candidate.

Not a single person is going to make a Betamax joke here..?

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Yes the videos of Iraqi troop shooting it while holding it outstretched over their heads while huddling behind cover is funny.

Not that how certain users use the rifles has anything to do with the rifles themselves, but in the interest of a bit of uncommon historical knowledge, one of the (unfortunately very few) things my father told me about his WWII combat experiences in Europe was seeing American troops doing exactly the same thing. At the time I was a teenager and of course was qualified to critically judge everything anyone else did and was mildly shocked by the revelation. I was also a small bore rifle competitor and couldn’t imagine why everyone on both sides didn’t exercise the same careful marksmanship to deliver the most accurate fire possible. In the 60 or so years since, and partially as a result of learning a bit about actual combat, I’ve become somewhat less judgmental.

Even if it is still funny.

Pic, because it happened.