Sweet, man. I hope I didn't ruin this thread comin' in heavy.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:
Sweet, man. I hope I didn't ruin this thread comin' in heavy.

Nope. It's my thread and I appreciate your thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Really accurate AR15s tend to be on the heavy side, but not always. Heavy is also a term that is defined differently among different gun owners. Here's a pic from a few years ago at the Whittington NRA Center 2-rifle match. Frickin' awesome weather.... Full gortex, fleece layers, most competitors carried a thermos of hot coffee. I'm using my Wilson Combat 18" barrel, the pack includes a sturdy tripod, and my precision bolt action rifle is slung on the left side. The WC 18" rifle is pretty much in its original configuration from Wilson -- maybe more on that later.



Schlepping all this gear over a couple miles a day kinda wears on you over a weekend. So I accumulated WC components for a shorter & lighter carbine, then had my local 'smith build me a "Wilson" 14.5" upper.



The 14.5" just plain shoots. From a post in the SF 10-shot group thread:
14.5" Wilson Combat fluted recon barrel, 1:8 twist. Second day of use, less than 100 rounds on the barrel at the end of the second day. 2-10x optic. Either 430 or 440 yards, winds varying constantly 3-12 mph from my 1-2 o'clock. Likely holding just inside the right edge of the plate to a few inches off the right edge of the plate. Aimed level with the angled point of the hip or shoulder of the full sized IPSC. I had just shot 20-30 rounds of Federal Vmax 53, which this barrel wasn't overly thrilled with. Next up is Hornady 75 Black BTHP. The first 5 rounds are the higher group. Shot #1 was way low, #2 was a little higher, #3 through #5 stacked on top of each other. About 1" vertical variation for #3-#5. Total group vertical of 5.5".

Second group is the lower one. 5 rounds pretty much stacked on top of each other, with 1.5" vertical variation. I got lucky with wind holds. Pretty close to 1/3 MOA at roughly a quarter mile.

(For those who aren't aware -- rifles often exhibit a short period of funky accuracy when switching between ammo types. Might be only a round or two. Or it might be 5+ rounds.)



I have not yet used the 14 upper in a match. Its only downside is the optic. The NF 2.5-10x has clear glass and it tracks well. The SFP isn't optimal for me -- I prefer FFP. But the reticle is a little thin for my tastes. Given all the foreground & background clutter of trees, limbs, bushes, and grass where our matches occur -- thicker reticle lines would be better.

****
On the accuracy thingie -- Bruce Gray emphasizes a straight-back trigger pull, while keeping the sights on target. Jerry Jones discusses driving the rifle. Jacob Bynum (Rifles Only) also says drive the rifle -- the reticle stays exactly on POA from pressing the go switch all the way through the entire recoil cycle.

ARs can be quite accurate with a good rifle/ammo/shooter system.

your last sentence reminded me of my first time at SAFS at Perry

I made the mistake of shooting the AR they had at the line like a shotgun, as in pop the trigger and let off,

the (cannot remember his rank) AMU guy imediately told me to hold the trigger,

as in pull, and part of follow thru is hold the trigger and not release until the bullet hits the target, or similar,

something I had learned earlier but had forgot,

and since then, I don't shoot any AR (I am a Mediocre Service Rifle shooter) without holding the trigger,



last match I attended, I shot 1st relay, and called the 2nd, I was walking back from the target shed (where we keep the supplies) whilst the shooters were in offhand and witnessed a relatively new shooter do exactly that, as in shoot like he was shooting trap ,

I stopped, coached, and he improved, in that match,


shoot, hold, release, and go again,

Now for my first AR15, in its original form. Wilson Combat fluted 16" mid-length, 1:9 twist. Leupold Mark IV 1.5-5x. Maybe closer to the form that many think of when looking for an AR.


A few weeks after buying this AR, I attended GrayGun's first pistol/carbine course at the Oregon location. jljones was the carbine instructor. Temps were in the high 90s, winds were gusty, and the area's fine red grit didn't play nicely with firearms. The 2 sheriff deputies' rifles jammed badly one day -- took them an hour or so to clean, lube, and futz with their bolts to get back up. IIRC their rifles were Colt and Bushmaster. My Wilson ran like a champ -- even with the way-too-thin Tetra spray lube I used back then, and with Brown Bear ball ammo.

There was one night shoot, where we shot steel by flashlights. A total hoot, and many of us burned a crapload of ammo in a short time. With my bolt locked back, the chamber had a dull red glow. There was a lot of heat coming through the rail to my left hand.

This Wilson has been my most often used formal training rifle. It was also used in my early carbine matches. Outside of jams that were engineered by instructors for training purposes, it has never failed to cycle properly. Records show it has consumed 40+ types of factory ammo -- from 40 grain varmint to 77 grain match to 55 grain FMJ. Accuracy was respectable from the get go, and it only improved as my shooting fundamentals improved. It shows a number of scrapes, as it has done a lot more than shoot from a concrete bench.

From my initial helo training course with Rifles Only, with the AR still in its original form. I had the pleasure of training with 2 SWAT officers from Houston and 2 overseas contractors. The wind-blown dust was hard on carbines. The SWAT guys and I kept our rifles running by regularly wiping down our bolts and spraying some lube. They had a Colt and a Sig. The contractors weren't as mindful of the conditions -- their Colt and BCM had issues on 2 of the days.



Barrel #1 is now long gone -- throat erosion turned it into a tomato stake. Like many stainless steel barrels, it went south quickly -- in maybe 100-150 rounds. FGMM 69 was that barrel's match ammo. At 300-400 yards it held 1 MOA of vertical one weekend, then deteriorated to having rounds impact 2-3 MOA low the next weekend, with random shots landing in between. But it still shot around 1 MOA at 100 yards. My gunsmith said the throat looked like alligator skin.

In its current form. 16" 1:8 twist Wilson barrel, better rail, Vortex PST II 2-10x. I preferred the balance of the first fluted barrel, but Wilson didn't have them in stock at the time.



Barrel #2 shoots better than #1. 440 yards, 1.75" vertical dispersion, or about .4 MOA. Hornady 75 BTHP. Winds from my 3-4 o'clock, estimated in the 12-17 mph ballpark, varying regularly. IIRC, I held just even with the lower bolt hole, just off the right edge of the plate. And then let the wind determine where the rounds would land.

^^^Interesting.

Where would you consider Stag in the tiers?

Lower

I would say mid. Like PSA. I feel the list of lower tier is pretty small.

My opinion is as follows.

upper tier 20%
mid tier 70%
lower tier 10%

PSA premium are legit. I have many thousands of rounds through mine and zero problems. The chrome lined bbls from FN are tough as hell.
I have a couple of these to beat in and play with and a BCM that is my bedside and go to war gun. Time will tell if the BCM is actually the better quality but so far they are all reliable rifles.