Something else that strikes me as an indication of possible usage is placement. I'm right handed so I were using an RMR for CQB distances I'd place it on the right side of the rifle because rolling the gun to the left is far easier than rolling to the right. If I were trying to use it as a target acquisition device, I'd put it on the left, or on top of the main optic. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Oh, yeah: From the What professional sniper would hang unnecessary crap like an RDS on his rifle? files.

Screen shots from a YouTube video of a US Army Special Operations Command sniper competition.








https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_lUyN6cWjg&t=413s

That looks like something the main character in 'Firefly' would carry.

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
I read the thread hoping to see some mounting options, because I’m contemplating putting one on a fairly static hunting rifle with a scope with a relatively high base magnification and think could prove useful.


Though I just sidetracked myself because as I was typing this. I remembered cobbling something together out of spare parts 20+ years ago on a ridiculous Contender carbine and went looking for a picture. An Optima2000 and a 300/221. (we weren’t tactical back then so it wasn’t a “RMR” and a “300 Blackout”.) I can remember sighting in the dot and doing load work up with the scope. It wasn’t together long as I recall being bored to tears with it. Knowing what I do now having used offset sights for many years, I wouldn’t put it at 12 o’clock again.





Gear is like training. Anyone can buy it, whether they need it, whether they will use it; whether it will help them or not.
(Same with a $100 go fast shooting shirt with your name and sponsor logos all over it, all you need to get one of those buy it)


Reading the earlier dick swinging in this thread, it reminded me of a gentleman I know. An “armed professional”, who has a 6” or so thick loose leaf binder full of certificates from training classes he’s attended at facilities all over the country. Handgun training, rifle training, shotgun and who knows what else. Some paid for by his employer, the majority paid for by himself. He is highly trained and highly motivated. And despite that, there’s one thing I feel pretty confident in. This is a thread full of people I do not know, have never met and have never seen shoot. But I would feel fairly confident betting on any one of these strangers being able to outshoot him in any discipline you could name.

Ooh a compliment!


Other than the added dot sight and how short it was, I can say there was nothing about that setup I liked. lol

Add some NV and a can and you'd have something.

sigfruend, some food for thought on using a RMR as a aiming aid and why I believe it's not a good practice.

We swing ourselves and rifle to another target, doesn't matter the position, prone, tripod..... We did not use our rifle as a index, aiming device, imaginary line to line our selves and rifle up on the target. We did not either visualize where the next target is located or lift our head to get a visual on the target before and as we move our selves and rifle. Kind of just plopped down in the perceived general area. Seen this happen countless times at matches, painful to watch! Crap, can't find the target. Squirm around looking through the RMR, pivoting the rifle. Find the target, move to get behind scope hopefully we can still see the target after that shift. Maybe the target is 15 degrees from where we plopped our selves and rifle down. Now are we going to take the time to square our selves up, natural point of aim or just shoot? We shoot. Shoot with bladed shoulders, not natural point of aim... gonna see our impact? Maybe, maybe not? Are we going to miss left or right because of the side ways pressure on our cheek piece from not being square behind the rifle? Good chance we feel a sense of urgency. Because of that maybe we don't take a second or two to look at the wind. Or, are we gonna take even more time to square our selves?

If I were teaching this stuff, someone showed up with a RMR on their precision rifle I would pull it off. Learning how to index ourselves and rifle I believe is a important skill to learn. Using a RMR as a aiming device would be a crutch for a lack that skill. Being able to drop ourselves in any position already squared up, natural point of aim is so much faster. Learn/practice this by setting up multiple targets as far as we can left to right. No accident I set up two targets as wide as I could the last time we got together.

Good points, offgrid, and they should certainly be considered in any evaluation of the concept.

Shooters are always coming up with new ideas that sometimes even spread and enjoy some popularity for a time before fading away vaguely-recalled obscurity. Although one may decide to experiment with something new, it’s important to analyze their possible flaws and disadvantages along with what they’re supposed to do for us. Very often that requires some objective thought rather than just jumping on the bandwagon. Sometimes people hang onto them despite their not working very well because they fail to acknowledge why, and it’s important to always remember that.

You suggested trying the idea by shooting on the clock and although it won’t be in any formal competitions, I do have some drills in mind to explore it further. I’m getting less tolerant of cold weather, though, so they may have to wait. I was teaching in shirtsleeves two days ago, but yesterday I got back inside as quickly as possible even wearing a heavy coat.

Easy to practice/try this stuff inside our cozy warm homes. Take the bolt out of your rifle, set up on a tripod. Mark a few targets with some L-R spread, move from target to target focus on using your rifle as a index.... With a goal of having the next target in your field of view. Bonus if your reticle is on it!

The practice seems to be becoming more common.
From a recent 22 Rimfire match:



On the other hand I haven't pursued much practice with the concept myself, but mostly because I don't do much shooting in which rapid transitions among targets are necessary.
And now the winter ....

I forgot about this thread. I did mount one on the rifle I planned and it seems to work well. My intended use is for hunting and I wanted to be able to use the rifle if need be in close in thick brush, on my way to the places with longer distances. (this has happened before) As well, should something step into the clear at say 10 yards, while I'm on 20+ power, it would be a faster option.

My only real grumble is I wanted close to the barrel and center to the bore, which it is. But doing so puts it exactly at the balance point and where my hand needs to be for one handed carry.

AN OLD THREAD.

Time and (now) personal experience have demonstrated for me that even a cheap illuminated reticle (“red dot”) sight mounted on a precision rifle with high power scope can be useful for initial target acquisition.

First, I’ll say that the value of such a device can depend on the shooter’s experience and skills. What may be useful for me or even any number of serious competitors may not be of any value, and conceivably even a handicap for some people. This, however, is an updated discussion of the topic and which may be of interest to some of us.

The use of small red dot sights by precision shooters, including the professionals (i.e., military snipers) has clearly exploded since I started this thread. That’s simple fact and easily checked by watching videos of sniper and other competitions. Whether their use actually helps anyone in a demonstrable way, it’s obvious that many people believe it does to the extent of going to the trouble and expense of mounting them on their rifles.

My own experience has been with AT3 Tactical ARO model sights that I chose because of their modest price and ability to mount them on a Picatinny rail section. I have mounted them in 45 degree offset mounts on three of what I consider to be precision rifles in 308 Winchester, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 22 Long rifle. I don’t shoot the first two very much, and usually at large, easy-to-see targets, but I shoot the last, a Tikka T1x Ace Target model a lot; really a lot.

The Tikka is mostly fired in drills using small targets usually placed at 50 yards. I usually shoot from the standing position with the rifle clipped into an Arca head on a tripod. The targets are usually in a fixed position on a large backer; that means I could just aim, clamp the tripod head down firmly, and the chosen target would always be in my field of view even with a high magnification scope setting. But often I don’t do it that way. To try to develop my target acquisition skills, I often start a timed drill with the gun pointed away from the target. On the signal I get into position on the rifle, find the target, and fire. But even though using the red dot isn’t usually actually necessary to find the target for initial aiming, I make it part of my process to become able to do it efficiently when it is necessary. That brings me to last Saturday.

My local club has instituted a NRL22 series, and that was the first match. Without getting into details of why, I got permission from the director to fire all stages standing with a bag on top of the tripod head. I obviously wasn’t competing, but wanted the experience of finding and engaging small targets at different locations and distances. The course of fire required 10 or 12 shots to be fired in two minutes, or about 10 seconds per target. Another shooter also had a T1x Ace Target, and one an Anschutz 1727 APR(!).

The maximum size of the targets was about 3 MOA at 100 yards, with many smaller, down to less than 1 MOA. Although they were painted red initially, subsequent hits tended to give them a mottled appearance and the light was behind them. In addition, the background was uniform bare dirt and sparce vegetation with few landmarks to reference the targets against. Seeing them without magnification was not easy.

I had a significant advantage over the competitors because I had a 15-round magazine that didn’t require a reload after running out of 10 rounds, I was in a comfortable position, and I didn’t have to move positions between shots. But a very significant advantage was the red dot sight: locate the target by eye, move the rifle so that the red dot was on the target, get behind the scope, and engage. I was the only shooter with that setup, and I really don’t know how others coped, except, perhaps, by having low-magnification sights. In general, however, no one did very well. I might have gotten 50% hits, but I did time out a couple of times and low hit counts, timeouts, and wrong sequence of fire got other shooters as well.

By comparison with the Saturday match, today I used a different 22LR rifle that I can’t easily mount a red dot on, and I really missed it even though the target was fixed at 50 yards. The targets were small, I was on a timer, and I ended up just cheating by leaving the rifle aimed at the targets between shots. I may have to try to figure out how to mount the RD.

In short, I am a firm fan of having a red dot sight on my precision rifles with high magnification scopes and small targets. Are there other ways of finding and aiming at targets quickly under competition conditions? Sure. Competitors have obviously been doing that for years. For me, though, using the sight has become automatic and works perfectly: put the dot on/near the target, switch to the scope, and there it is.