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An RMR type red dot sight on a precision rifle. Login/Join 
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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A couple of Aimpoint T-1 sights with Era-Tac mounts on modern German army G28 rifles as seen in military sniper application.







Probably not for the purpose I raised, but interesting nevertheless.

The original video from which the images were taken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXCPzEg3NU8




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44819 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
A couple of Aimpoint T-1 sights with Era-Tac mounts on modern German army G28 rifles as seen in military sniper application.







Probably not for the purpose I raised, but interesting nevertheless.

The original video from which the images were taken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXCPzEg3NU8


One of the ranges I and a couple buddies shoot at quite frequently is used by various agencies for qualifying, training.... Over the last few years I've got to know a handful of them pretty well. They've shared with me poor gear choices someone other then them made. Taught me not to assume the guy behind the trigger choose that Aimoint Wink
 
Posts: 3166 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by offgrid:
Taught me not to assume the guy behind the trigger choose that Aimoint Wink


Although I personally wouldn’t have any objection to the S&B/Aimpoint combination based on my very limited experience with an ACRO in that position thus far, the fact that it was a German army adoption would make your observation even more likely. But such attitudes aren’t limited to Germans. It seems to me that it’s common for the guys involved in training and acquisitions who have a lot of time to sit around and think about such things tend to become fascinated with every new gadgets and gear innovation (I know that from personal experience Roll Eyes Wink ).

And, as I say, I doubt that the ERATAC mount and Aimpoint were adopted to make it easier for snipers to find their targets quickly. Europeans in particular have been more commonly enamored with backup sights on their military sniper rifles, and this could be a manifestation of that tradition. Or as I mentioned in another thread, such sights might be deemed desirable for close range engagements.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44819 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Or as I mentioned in another thread, such sights might be deemed desirable for close range engagements.

You continue to dig yourself into a hole. The military and LEO snipers I've trained with use their scopes, regardless of distance. They attach one scope that meets their requirements.

Ixnay on the doodads and concentrate on your shooting skills. That's what matters. You need to get off the internet and into the field, with other shooters.
 
Posts: 7139 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
You continue to dig yourself into a hole.


As much as I respect your knowledge and appreciate your useful comments, you don’t know nearly as much about military operations or military sniping as you assume you do based on your civilian shooting games experiences. If you have other qualifications, I have certainly not seen evidence of it here.

As I made clear by the “might be” caveat in my comment, I cannot be certain what motivated the Bundeswehr to mount an Aimpoint sight on top of their sniping riflescopes, but its use as a short range sight is certainly a possibility, and more likely than anything else I could think of. Whether you recognize it or not, military sniping theory and practice varies among agencies, and especially among different countries. What’s more, practices and equipment evolve over time, and not necessarily at the same rate everywhere. I clearly remember a time when US military snipers’ issued riflescopes were fixed 10 power and had elevation and windage adjustments calibrated in minutes of angle and their reticles were calibrated in milliradians. Today’s unnecessary or unthinkable can become tomorrow’s standard.

But as you are convinced yourself that the Aimpoint with ERATAC mount isn’t intended for close range engagements, just what is it for? G28 rifles are already equipped with backup mechanical sights, so just what purpose is the Aimpoint intended to serve? A backup backup?
If you have sources in the German army sniper corps I would be very interested in knowing what the correct answer is rather than my “might be” speculation.

This is a discussion forum, and that’s what I do: discuss things, and that includes asking questions and musing about things. I have tried to graciously ignore your gratuitous and often obnoxious replies directed at my questions and comments, but you keep doing it for reasons that are unclear to me, and that makes it difficult for me to remain civil myself.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44819 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In December I attended a helicopter training course at Rifles Only in Texas. The course immediately prior to mine was a Marine sniper training course, attended by 10 of what I was told were among the best of the Marine snipers. The two Marines-specific trainers stayed on for two days into our course. We had many discussions over those two days on how the Marines trained and what equipment they used. They showed us a few pictures of the Marines in training, and I saw their equipment. All of the Marine snipers had bolt action rifles and one scope -- nothing else for a sighting device.

I trained with Nick Irving, a Ranger Sniper. His rifle only had a primary scope. He had a 30-something kills in the sandbox.

I attended a training course with two SWAT officers from Louisiana. They used LPV on their AR15 patrol rifles. No offset sights. They spent a bunch of time patrolling after Katrina.

I trained with a SWAT officer from Ohio. He has permanently retired three bad guys, up close with his AR15 SBR. Uses a red dot only.

Met a bunch of LEOs and ex-military shooters in matches. Try to pick their brains when possible.

How many snipers have you shot with?

You sometimes concentrate on the items/methods used by the 1 in a thousand or 1 in ten thousand. That's fine if the 1 is producing results head and shoulders above the rest. Absolutely the way to focus on learning in improving. But most likely the 999 or the 9,999 are doing what they're doing because it works the vast majority of the time.

From what the instructors/snipers/SWAT guys have told me, the last thing a person wants is yet another device to deal with in heat of battle. From the drills I've done in training, I agree. Average LEO sniper engagements are well-documented as being under 100 yards. Using an alternative sighting device means training with potentially different sight-vs-bore offsets. Definitely with different cheek welds. Possible with different buttstock-on-the-shoulder positions. That's not something the guys I've shot with want to do.

You can call this clutter, or you can read and learn.
 
Posts: 7139 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Today I tested the concept of using the supplemental sight as an aiming aid during a drill at 130 and 200 yards at prone and kneeling supported.

The targets were small and positioned in front of a largely featureless snow-covered background. I have fired the drill many times before without the supplemental aid of the nonmagnifying red dot sight, but finding the targets in the highly magnified view of the primary sight has often been frustrating and more consuming of time that I’d rather spend on other aspects of the exercise than I like. Today, though, the time was much less and the lack of frustration was appreciated even more.

The value of using a nonmagnifying sight for preliminary target acquisition and aiming depends of course on various considerations, and probably not least on the shooter’s experience and skill at using just the primary sight. It is, however, an effective method and may be of most benefit to less experienced shooters such as hunters and under conditions that make target acquisition more difficult.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44819 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Bringing this topic back up with a link to a demonstration by an MDT rep for those who might be interested in another look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS5dRXXTo8s




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44819 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
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My personal experience in this doesn't come from the military, but from shooting 100 yard 22lr 'sniper' matches against animal silhouettes. I don't remember what power my scope was on, but I used the Bindon aiming concept when scanning for targets.

I do know some very dangerous types who have trained at group, and higher levels. I may be seeing them later this week so if I do I'll ask them about RDS on precision rifles.

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Or as I mentioned in another thread, such sights might be deemed desirable for close range engagements.


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Posts: 6974 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by SgtGold:
I may be seeing them later this week so if I do I'll ask them about RDS on precision rifles.


Thank you. That would be great.

I have seen a few of the sights on rifles in videos of military sniper competitions/training, but it would be good to learn how common the practice is. It could be that it is just starting to gain popularity—or not. Smile




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44819 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His Royal Hiney
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It's good to consider "stuff." Worst case, you can mark off as something that doesn't work. Best case, you break new ground. Nobody who ever broke new ground did so by following the crowd.



"It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946.
 
Posts: 17064 | Location: The Free State of Arizona - Ditat Deus | Registered: March 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Oh, yeah: From the What professional sniper would hang unnecessary crap like an RDS on his rifle? files. Wink

Screen shots from a YouTube video of a US Army Special Operations Command sniper competition.








https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_lUyN6cWjg&t=413s




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44819 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I’m not a professional Big Grin But I did shoot a bolt rifle this past summer with a RMR mounted similar to the above pictures. Found it to be very slow. Again I encourage you to try yourself on a clock.

Would love to shoot that competition. It’s like a cross between the Competition Dynamic Team Safari/Team Challenge, Raton 2 gun and other matches.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: offgrid,
 
Posts: 3166 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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I watch a lot of videos about precision rifle shooting, including competitions, and they prompt many of the questions and discussions I post here. For reasons I’m not obligated to explain to anyone else, though, it’s very unlikely that I’ll ever be in a position to engage in anything other than very local activities myself. But I might move one of my red dot sights to my more or less precision 22 LR rifle and run some of the drills I’ve devised with that setup. That would help me answer the question of whether it could become of value with practice.

It seems obvious that just as using an optical sight on a handgun requires adjustments in attitude and technique by many shooters, the same is true of switching between sights in precision rifle shooting. I found it interesting that although the shooter in the MDT video I linked above didn’t perform any faster using the RDS to find the target, he was still willing to admit that practice and familiarity might help.

I’m still skeptical that optics will revolutionize handgun shooting, but as Rey HRH points out, we don’t try, we’ll never know.
And I even acquired a P320 slide with Romeo1 sight to more fully explore the concept for my agency. Wink




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44819 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I Deal In Lead
Picture of Flash-LB
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quote:
Originally posted by Micropterus:
This concept has been used on astro telescopes for a long time.



Yep, but it took a while for someone to figure out it would also work with a red dot and a scoope.
 
Posts: 7789 | Location: Gilbert Arizona | Registered: March 21, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Burris Optics has offered their combo 1X6 Scope and Red Dot for several years now.

https://www.burrisoptics.com/s...uarter-tactical-kits

If I were still hunting, I would certainly find it useful for long distance attempts on a moving target particularly if moving in and out of concealment.

I have duplicate setups on two different rifles.


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Posts: 1427 | Location: Denver Area Colorado | Registered: December 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
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Ok, got to talk to my dangerous friend tonight. He confirmed that the RMR\CCO is being used on precision rifles for a combination of general target aquisition and very CQB snap shooting. He couldn't speak to civilian LEO policy as to zeroing distances, but he said that the Army was using 100 meters as a baseline zero because it provided a good starting point for both CQB and distance scanning.


_____________________________
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Posts: 6974 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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I was gone most of the day, SgtGold, so sorry about the slow response, but I appreciate your checking and the information.

It occurred to me that the supplemental sights on the rifles in the pictures of the military snipers I posted above could have been just for close range engagements, but without being able to talk to the shooters involved it was only speculation.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44819 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
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That was some intense range time. Another thing to remember here is both the AMU and CAG are always experimenting with stuff. Equipment, it's appliction, and the overall effect it has on mission success all goes into the decision tree that's used to determine should it stay or should it go. It's going to be a while before we see if the RMR\CCO becomes a perminant piece of kit on the average sniper team's weapons.

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Oh, yeah: From the What professional sniper would hang unnecessary crap like an RDS on his rifle? files. Wink

Screen shots from a YouTube video of a US Army Special Operations Command sniper competition.








https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_lUyN6cWjg&t=413s


_____________________________
'I'm pretty fly for a white guy'.

 
Posts: 6974 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"Member"
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I read the thread hoping to see some mounting options, because I’m contemplating putting one on a fairly static hunting rifle with a scope with a relatively high base magnification and think could prove useful.


Though I just sidetracked myself because as I was typing this. I remembered cobbling something together out of spare parts 20+ years ago on a ridiculous Contender carbine and went looking for a picture. An Optima2000 and a 300/221. (we weren’t tactical back then so it wasn’t a “RMR” and a “300 Blackout”.) Wink I can remember sighting in the dot and doing load work up with the scope. It wasn’t together long as I recall being bored to tears with it. Knowing what I do now having used offset sights for many years, I wouldn’t put it at 12 o’clock again.





Gear is like training. Anyone can buy it, whether they need it, whether they will use it; whether it will help them or not. Smile
(Same with a $100 go fast shooting shirt with your name and sponsor logos all over it, all you need to get one of those buy it)


Reading the earlier dick swinging in this thread, it reminded me of a gentleman I know. An “armed professional”, who has a 6” or so thick loose leaf binder full of certificates from training classes he’s attended at facilities all over the country. Handgun training, rifle training, shotgun and who knows what else. Some paid for by his employer, the majority paid for by himself. He is highly trained and highly motivated. And despite that, there’s one thing I feel pretty confident in. This is a thread full of people I do not know, have never met and have never seen shoot. But I would feel fairly confident betting on any one of these strangers being able to outshoot him in any discipline you could name. Big Grin
 
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