My primary and favorite carbine is my USC's that were converted. I have 2 of them. One I will leave the 16" barrel on, the other at some point I will have converted to an SBR.

I'm a huge 45 ACP fan, and these rifles work very well for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
I am not quite following the problem with available cartridge chamberings for a lever action.
.30-30
.44 mag/.44 spl
.357 mag/.38 all
.45-70
.45LC

Well proven in one sense or another, no doubt, but none is a cartridge I’d care to have a rifle chambered for. To each his own and I never criticize others’ choices (unless they ask for my opinion) but not for me given the availability of what I consider to be much better choices for almost any purpose I would want a rifle for.

quote:

I'm a huge 45 ACP fan, and these rifles work very well for me

I'm more or less with sigfreund on the idea one doesn't criticize someones choice of caliber. And I am one of those with a real affinity for converted USC's having done a couple. But there is nothing that I would consider even moderately 'rifle like' about a .45acp carbine.

Regarding useful calibers and limitations:

he Savage Model 99 is chambered in a multitude of calibers for just about any purpose. There are other lever guns in similar chamberings,

The AR-15 is available in even more chamberings. My first choice in AR is not necessarily 5.56. I find 6.8 SPC particularly useful and would bridge the self-defense to hunting divide.

The AR is relatively simple to use and first time shooters often perform well with an AR.

It seems, so far, that the only alternative weapons being seriously considered are bullpups. I certainly see why that appeals. I had an AUG, and liked it well enough, but I don't miss it. That's certainly one of those personal things; you either like the bullpup or you don't. Well, actually, in my case, I am almost indifferent; I see the merits and respect the design, but ultimately prefer the AR.

The lever guns are getting a healthy mention, in the context of some current geographical legal limitations. Potential future limitations have been mentioned as well, which is frightening, but certainly valid.

Caliber has also come up. The AR is synonymous with 5.56, and that's what I had in mind. I think that's the way to go to, considering availability, but I respect the caliber's limitations. hrcjon mentioned he wouldn't have it in 5.56; what, then, would you choose instead?

I'm not sure exactly what circumstance would lead me to be in the 'you have 30 seconds' grab and go (deadly gas cloud?, bombs inbound?) but what I am taking in that circumstance is a .308 Scar17. Not because its perfect but because its way better overall than an AR for that overall survival circumstance and I trust that I can keep it running long enough to develop other longer term options. Now if you give me 15 minutes to get ready I will make other choices.

I love my 553 sb and 553 lb. The folding stock and aluminum lower make for an excellent truck gun which I take camping often. Sure they are a little heavier but style counts for something right?

I have a 9mm AR and ten or so AR's with varying calibers for options should the SHTF. Weight isn't so much a factor for me since I don't plan on walking anywhere. I'm more of a bug in kind of guy. Concealability is something i think is important and the folding stock on the 550 series rifle makes it an important choice.

I'm not so worried about a particular gun. I am worried about being good with them. It does get hard switching rifles with differing optics. I have tried to keep them standardized with MOA adjustments and similar sight in distances.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
It seems, so far, that the only alternative weapons being seriously considered are bullpups. I certainly see why that appeals. I had an AUG, and liked it well enough, but I don't miss it. That's certainly one of those personal things; you either like the bullpup or you don't. Well, actually, in my case, I am almost indifferent; I see the merits and respect the design, but ultimately prefer the AR.

The lever guns are getting a healthy mention, in the context of some current geographical legal limitations. Potential future limitations have been mentioned as well, which is frightening, but certainly valid.

Caliber has also come up. The AR is synonymous with 5.56, and that's what I had in mind. I think that's the way to go to, considering availability, but I respect the caliber's limitations. hrcjon mentioned he wouldn't have it in 5.56; what, then, would you choose instead?

A "primary carbine" in a limited chambering is foolish, IMO. Good luck finding ammo other than what you're carrying in a pinch.

quote:

I'm not so worried about a particular gun. I am worried about being good with them.

That goes without saying.

hrcjon,
There's no thirty-second time limit.

I know everyone has a different plan. I plan to be mobile, in that SHTF scenario. So, when we're talking 5.56 vs .308, I'd rather have more than twice as many rounds of 5.56 on me.

Edit: My initial appraisal was a bit generous to 5.56, in terms of ammo carriage. I still maintain that it has an edge in that regard though.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

Not a better option than my 5.56 AR or AR pistol (CMMG Banshee in 10 mm), but my tacticool M1 carbine with red dot IS dead-nuts reliable, short, light, and super-handy. Sure, only a 100m rifle (sure, I can loft rounds to 150m or even 200m), but that should be plenty for most situations. Nostalgia...

I know a couple of guys who have selected the Sig MPX for their BOB.

My carbines:
Mini 14 .223
Marlin 336 SBL .30-30
Ruger PC Carbine with Glock adapter.

I prefer the Mini 14. I use it primarily for predator control, foxes and racoons in the henhouse or sheep pen. Small targets at close range, sometimes within 15 feet, at night.

I once shot a rabid racoon at 15 feet.

I prefer the Ruger because the sights are not elevated above the barrel, which I think makes it more accurate at close ranges. The wood stock is also more familiar to me. Because I am old and set in my ways....

I never had an AR15 until about ten years ago when the prices came down.

I really like the AR-15 platform, however the SIG 556 is my fallback. Nothing beats a gas piston for reliability.

I came of age among cousins and acquaintances, who were returning from SE Asia, with no love for the M16. So, I was not programmed to love the AR15/M16 system. Nearby Houston, Texas was still an oil boom town, in the early Eighties, while the rest of the USA was in a recession, so, I sought adventure by applying with Houston PD, rather than going the military route. At that time, patrol rifles were not allowed by HPD. So, I totally missed being indoctrinated, in early life, in the AR15 system. There was, at the time, good reason for me to use something other than an AR15, as a personal carbine. I did develop an interest in the HK91/G3 system, and the FN FAL system, but did not buy into either system.

The events of September 11th, 2001 caused a turnabout in PD policy, regarding patrol rifles. So, at age 40, I became acquainted with the AR15. The high line-of-sight, relative to the bore axis, was, well, interesting. The safety selector lever, being ready to fire, WHEN THE DINGUS WAS DOWN, was also, well, interesting. Nearly two decades of using weapons that were ready to fire, when the safety lever was aligned with the target/opponent, required some serious mental re-wiring.

I voluntarily let my “patrol carbine unit” status lapse, after there were plenty of young bucks who had become certified to carry the AR15 on duty. I sold my Colt AR15A2 Govt Carbine to one of them. Working straight night shift, the shotgun was still my friend. (Plus, PD rules allowed getting out of the car, with the shotgun, at my discretion, whereas specific circumstances had to exist, before the patrol rifle could be deployed, from its mandated place in the trunk of the vehicle.)

So, there was no reason to remain with the AR15/M4 system. I did eventually acquire/assemble a lower, and added a BCM Lightweight Middy upper, in order to maintain familiarity with the system that my colleagues were using. I updated to a complete BCM weapon, by acquiring two complete BCM lowers. I retired from LEO-ing in 2018, which ending my being near colleagues’ AR15/M4 weapons, but, I reckoned it was a good idea to continue to maintain familiarity. I did, however, started looking around. Interest in the HK91/G3/PTR was rekindled, and I very nearly bought a couple of them, locally, but other buyers acted before I did, each time.

I added a few more AR15/M4 uppers, and two more lowers, in very early 2020, for the now-obvious reasons. (I did buy, before things got scarce, and before prices went up.) There are other adults, in the household, so, it makes sense to keep a few AR15/M4 rifles. I am still thinking that I really like the HK91/PTR option, and am monitoring new arrivals, at a nearby major gun store. (Too bad that the HK93 has become so collectible.) Why HK/PTR? Well, among other factors, it is ready to fire, when the safety lever is in-line with the opponent/target. Plus, the safety lever is lefty-friendly.

I have, however, had a favored .308 carbine, that feeds from detachable, quickly-changeable box magazines, since the mid-Nineties, a Browning BLR. I have added a couple of the Takedowns, since then, one blued, and one stainless finish. They are not military-tough, but, they are handy, light in weight, and the Takedowns are quite pack-able. The blued Takedown was bought used, and had a bit of rust, outside the barrel, at the muzzle end, so, I am likely to cut and re-crown the now-20” barrel, to make it even easier to pack. The safety “lever” is a folding hammer spur, that makes it impossible for the firing pin to be struck, and is off-safe’d by cocking the hammer. Totally left/right-neutral.

I do not claim to be any type of expert. I was provided with some truly competent AR15-based patrol rifle instruction, but that was quite some time ago.

Don't own one. My bedside gun is an AK.

Yes, there is good reason to run a primary carbine other than the ar15.

Any other operating mechanism I am aware of affords the option to fold and still be used if needed until one can unfold it.this is a big deal for me being in an urban area. The ability to discreetly have a carbine available is, well awesome. As we entertain post apocalyptic dialog, this function becomes even more valuable.

Personally, my 11.5 virtus is my go to carbine and fits in a "only slightly larger than normal" back pack. My Ddm4v7 sits in the safe and occasionally makes range trips.

16" ballistics in a firefight aren't a gamechanger nor even needed in many cases.

Look at what we consider the battle field where WE would use a firearm. Population density and propensity to conflict is much higher near urban zones. Other than a Texas Vs OK Aggies game, it's not farmlands where the last few years of significant conflict were demonstrated. And urban zones hold the most of our population - like Canada where over 50% of their population is located - the Montreal-Toronto-Quebec corridor is significantly the smallest land area there, but the most highly populated.

America is no different, the coastal metros are the biggest areas of conflict and population. To narrow that down, inside the ring roads, which is a mix of semi rural, suburban, and urban metroplex. Line of sight in that region isn't like Afghanistan or the American West, and the likely conflicts aren't over open farmland. It's a constricted tangle of strip roads connecting to small towns, Malls, shopping areas, residential housing areas, and then boxed and fenced in lots leading to multistory buildings.

Another aspect is actual engagement ranges of humans in conflict with firearms in all ranges of combat, and studies dating from WWI thru Project Salvo in the fifties showed the average range was 125 meters. That is because first, the opponents deliberately use concealment and cover to keep from being in the open, the nature of vegetation, buildings, etc. Another is the ability to acquire a target at those distances and shoot it, considering the little time exposed. The use of the three second rush bounding from one cover to the next leaves very little window to shoot - unlike the captive paper target at a range.

That is why the 14.5" barrel in the M4 is still more than adequate, and hits by it are being accomplished with the aid of red dots and some user skill, which then on impact "stop" the aggressor. That is another myth of combat, that we somehow need to kill the opponent dead right there. We don't - just stop them from firing back. And the results in warfare haven't really changed much, the DRT vs Wounded ratios haven't changed radically. What has is the engagement ranges and use of soldier weapons, as we transitioned from artilley based warfare to Light Intensity Conflict - largely conducted in urban zones.

We just don't need 16" ballistics, or even 20", and we can still get hits. As a matter of history, the Army never attempted the 16" rifle, they adopted the 10.5" XM177 before they accepted the M16 20", 1965 vs 1968.

The AR PISTOL is a sufficient weapon for most of what we deal with inside this high density populated area, and it's also better configured for working inside buildings, too, the exact reason why the XM177 was adopted - urban and tunnel use. Then the Navy saw that as desireable for ship boarding, and that became a standard for clearing seized ships. 20" barrels aren't easily handled in the tight confines of ships, much less commercial building or residential. They went to the 10.5" inch, and later 11" for some incremental tuning.

Those weapons will put out rounds at over 2,400 fps with 70 grn bullets - which is how to optimize them, heavier bullets, not lighter. That increases the foot pounds of force, too, and helps recover the ability to penetrate, a highly desireable quality needed in built up conflict, NOT exploding bullets that can't go thru two layers of sheet rock. That might get preached a lot to keep from shooting your neighbors, but the perps don't bother, and if you are accurately shooting at them, not wildly in directions where others are living, you reduce those perps shooting at all and their collateral damage, too.

The use of the 14.5 and 10.5 barrel is also well documented to get hits out to 400 meters effectively as we aren't constrained to kill our opponents DRT nor is there an ethical 1,000 foot pounds of force as needed to reduce game loss in fair chase hunting. Nope, a hit is a hit is a hit and if you hit somebody shooting at you, they tend to react to that hit and often quit the game and seek attention from team mates. It's not all about amped up druggies or gangstas out there. It's a well documented and known fact that "mass shooters" will more often break contact shooting innocents and quite often then shoot themselves when encountering return fire.

The concept of needing overwhelming ballistics to stop humans is more often driven by our untrained ego rather than the reality of combat. We want to go full retard Hulk on them when some finesse and control is far better executed - hence the point of Basic Training, to condition and control measured response.

My primary is the AR Pistol, and for travel and close quarters I'm saving for a Mossberg Shockwave and minishell slugs. They are the modern equivalent of the 9mm SMG for personal protection. As I am NOT roaming the neighborhood to engage hostiles, just protecting my own property, much more than that is attempting to engage at long range. Typical residential line of sight is rarely more than 125m in backyards and longer out front, near a road in flat overdeveloped farm land. Which is why I don't live there. However, my deer rifle would be appropriate - a 16" 6.8 SPC. 50% more power out to 250m. Or, a Win 94 .30-30. But - will the typical activist be doing long range fire, no, more likely driving thru in a "technical" vehicle making hit and runs at much closer ranges. Even 9mm will go thru sheet metal and glass - its FBI protocol.

Moot point for the most part as the next revolution won't be televised and likely won't even be a shooting war. BTW, can you recognize we are already in it? Revolutions dont always need guns, they can exercise power thru deception and subverting the existing governmental structure. Convince me that isn't happening in Canada - and isn't a dress rehearsal.

quote:

Originally posted by kalford:
Any other operating mechanism I am aware of affords the option to fold and still be used if needed until one can unfold it.this is a big deal for me being in an urban area.

As mentioned in my OP, I have used the Sig 55X series rifles almost as much as the AR platform for going-on ten years now. Not once have I seen the real value of the folding stock. It has come in handy for transportation, but it has never even remotely struck me as something truly worthwhile. Almost all weapons that have a folding stock have enough drawbacks, when compared to the AR, that the folding feature is rendered moot. Your MCX may be the nearest thing to a useful folding stock there is, considering it is very AR-like in all other respects. Then again, one can utilize a LAW folder on any AR, if the folder is important to them, and retain almost 100% of the AR positive attributes. An environment that favors concealed carry of a carbine is a very slim sliver of gray area, in a no-doubt escalating situation that will soon favor open carry of carbines anyway. I guess my overall opinion is that folding stocks will never be deal-maker.

Thank you, Tirod, for another valuable contribution. Your comment touches on a lot of topics I consider regularly.

I remain curious about folks' opinions on potential near-peer conflicts though. Our current opinions, as formed by the last 20 years of GWOT, may not seem so relevant in a different conflict. I live in a rural/agricultural area, where longer-range engagements have a higher probability, but I do agree that the majority of conflict will occur in more population-dense areas; the woods may as well be an apartment building, in most cases, due to terrain and vegetation constraints, so I certainly agree with your assessment there. One good example, in my opinion, of tactics already shifting, is then utilization of NVGs through optics; it is now considered prudent to treat your IR laser and illuminator as though they were visible lasers and white light, due to potential enemy capabilities. The enemy that has NVGs likely has artillery and air assets, and the battlefield may favor longer engagements more so than before.