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Picture of arcwelder
posted
Shotguns. I do like them. Beside the KSG, I can say I never bothered with anything but a Mossberg 500 or 590.

The Beretta 1301 hit the shelf and I bought one. Because my primary use for a shotgun is home defense, and I wanted to make sure the wife had to only minimally train. Of course, train with every firearm, but one of the shortcomings of pump shotguns is people. They assume it will work every time. Under stress, you have to go all the way forward and all the way back, every time.

I'm a busy guy, and I still have a backlog of things I'd like to post. The renewed ban here in MA is slated for August, I behaved last year like it was going to pass then.. I hope the various cases making their way through the courts eventually invalidate gun bans, but that ain't tomorrow.

I like to hit the Fun Shop early saturday, when it's quiet. I found something:



A "used" M1.

The granddaddy of tactical semiauto shotguns. For $800. Why so cheap? Well, they don't make them anymore, and these things have no features. Even now you'll buy a Benelli and have to fiddle with it. But I figured I'd find out what the fuss was about.

I fall down rabbit holes.

While I've long been aware of the fuss over the M3 and M4, I had no idea the M1 and M2 operated differently.

I've only shot the 1301. Frankly, why bother with pumps? Cost only. The KSG is a dalliance. The 870 is wonderful. A Mossberg 500 or 590 is just fine, especially for the price.

With all firearms, the largest reliability problem is the shooter. My wife and son have been shooting with me, but "experience?" Nah.

So in the interest of maximum force, the pumps are gone and only semiautos remain. I'm gathering parts right now, and will wring everything out at the range, then train the family.

Shotguns considered:

Benelli M1 - it was the right price
Benelli M2 - offers improvements over the M1, but you still need a mag tube etc.
Beretta 1301 - mine is the early variant, and like the Benellis, needs some fiddling.
Mossberg 940 Pro Tactical - The American answer to the 1301 and A300. Having only finger fucked it, this shotgun is a real competitor, and the only one with no fiddling, and an optics cut.

I practice guns in my basement with dummies. While I don't get out and shoot much, I practice loading and pulling the trigger, drawing, all of these things, regularly. You should, it's cheap and very effective.

I feel like for anyone reading, it will be between the A300 and the 940. I've got the 1301, I'll not buy an A300.

What do you need on a shotgun? A white light, extra ammo, maybe a sling, and maybe an optic. If you need range, optic. I don't really think you need a sling if your purpose is home defense. Aim with the bright spot in the light, not with a bead, ghost rings, or optics.

On paper, all of these guns will run and run. The ammo you feed it is the key. If you want less maintenance, that is where the M2 is king. Gas systems get dirty, and also need enough oompa to run the action. The M1/M2 use rearward travel of the gun itself to unlock the bolt.

Rounds down range will tell me what is best for me, but all of these I'm confident will perform in the hands of a family member.

The Beretta is lighter. The 940 is feature packed. No one is interested in the M2 but me. I see there are Turkish and other copies out there, I say "caveat emptor."


Arc.
______________________________
"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash
"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman
Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM
"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

 
Posts: 27022 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Gas systems get dirty, and also need enough oompa to run the action. The M1/M2 use rearward travel of the gun itself to unlock the bolt.


Inertia semis like the M1/M2 still need "enough oompa" to run the action. Some of them can be finicky with light loads.
 
Posts: 32562 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Certified All Positions
Picture of arcwelder
posted Hide Post
Everything semi needs oompa. A gas system needs more oompa and will be dirtier. But these are things I can explore with rounds downrange.

The M2 needs to move rearward to unlock, From all the BS, it seems like this actually makes it the most tolerant of ammunition types.

I found an olde video of induced failures in the M1 by holding it too tight. Maybe so. Pick a gun, practice, find the ammo it likes, practice.


Arc.
______________________________
"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash
"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman
Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM
"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

 
Posts: 27022 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
Picture of P220 Smudge
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That's a great price for that M1.

I've accumulated a number of shotguns over the years. From break action single and double barrels to pumps to semi-autos, in 12ga and 20ga. I've been shooting shotguns since I can remember, somewhere about ten years old. I did almost all my hunting with shotguns, and did a lot of it, too. Used to go through cases of clay pigeons in high school by myself with a thrower out in the front field on our property.

Of all that experience, my Benelli M1S90 is absolutely the least pleasant shotgun I've ever discharged. It is downright painful to shoot. I won't even speculate on why that is, but I bought mine because I've wanted one since I was a teenager and I absolutely hate it.


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Carthago delenda est
 
Posts: 17228 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bolt Thrower
Picture of Voshterkoff
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I still regret not getting one of the surplus top folding M3s CMMG was selling back in the day. I did pick up an HK import M1 Field gun with a camo coating, but haven’t put more than a couple boxes of light stuff through it so far.
 
Posts: 9981 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Lt CHEG
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Nice looking M1. I’ve always thought they were some sexy looking shotguns.

Personally, I don’t like pump shotguns for defense/ patrol/ combat or whatever term you’d like to use. I think pumps should be for dedicated less lethal guns, with appropriately bright colored furniture. The manual of arms is different on a pump shotgun than it is for everything else carried by a typical police officer. I’ve seen quite a few times where officers have struggled a bit with pump shotguns either forgetting to work the slide and being surprised when nothing happens when they pull the trigger again, or short stroking a pump, etc. I just think that modern semi auto shotguns have gotten so good, so reliable that there is no good justification to use a pump for defensive work anymore.




“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
 
Posts: 5583 | Location: Upstate NY | Registered: February 28, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of ruger357
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I have an M2 tactical. Considering a beretta. These would be the only 2 makers I would trust for home defense.

IIRC a pretty well known trainer said the mossberg auto gave some trouble in his classes.

I will also never give up my remington and mossberg pumps.


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Posts: 7964 | Location: Hoover, AL | Registered: November 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Certified All Positions
Picture of arcwelder
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Nothing is absolutely trouble free, and there are loads of variables. I'm thinking mainly of family needing to use one under stress, and if you think about never using a pump, even with how "reliable" they are, load your pump with dummies and try to run it as fast as possible. If you don't shoot much and don't practice...

I get wanting to hang on to pumps, there is nothing wrong with the ones I just let go. But not having to rack a shotgun in duress is worth some ducats. Semiauto shotguns have been around for over 100 years.

As I mentioned, I was able to find video of induced failures in the M1/M2, and I don't doubt you can find stories of any model failing. Do people ever come back from a class with an 870 or 590 and admit they couldn't keep up? I doubt it.

I think the tactical semiauto market is ripe, I think the 940 and A300 are prime price point. I didn't need an M3 or M4, can't fault people for going there though.

Where you will never find me, is buying chinese or turkish copies for half or less of the cost. That's not something I'd buy to rely on.


Arc.
______________________________
"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash
"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman
Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM
"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

 
Posts: 27022 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"Member"
Picture of cas
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quote:

Inertia semis like the M1/M2 still need "enough oompa" to run the action. Some of them can be finicky with light loads.


My experience is this is more over blown than people are lead to believe. When I bought my first, I had to work at it to cause it to happen. (100% free recoil, firing it not holding it at all, gun went flying behind me. lmao)

I've yet to run into a shell cheap enough, or factory shell wimpy enough to not cycle them just fine, even the longer stroke SBE/SBE2's. (sample size of seven)

I know some old guns had issues, hence the creation of the "sure cycle" system. I think they were just over sprung.

I've bought a few PD trade in's. Inertia spring and carrier springs are replaced just because. I viewed them as consumables on my match gun (though I know I changed them too often, at least the inertia spring.) I have one M2 that is probably due for a recoil spring, she feels a bit harsher than the others.
 
Posts: 21123 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Of all that experience, my Benelli M1S90 is absolutely the least pleasant shotgun I've ever discharged. It is downright painful to shoot.


Can confirm. I have a Beretta 1201FP, which is basically a Beretta badged Benelli M1 - same exact inertia operating system, and even a number of interchangeable parts - just even a bit lighter in weight (read: even greater felt recoil).

With the factory stock, it was quite unpleasant with full power loads.

But with this aftermarket Mesa Tactical stock with Limbsaver pad as shown, it's just mildly unpleasant. Big Grin

 
Posts: 32562 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Green grass and
high tides
Picture of old rugged cross
posted Hide Post
Pump guy here. There are good reasons why police have used successfully for decades. I know things advance, including bad guys tools and tactics. I also know we have more police now days that do not like guns and dislike training with them.
Pumps have their place as defensive weapon.
I do not dislike auto's. I have one. It is solid. But I will take my pumps all day, every day if my families life depends on one. No doubt. Ymmv



"Practice like you want to play in the game"
 
Posts: 19256 | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arcwelder
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Oooo K.

Are we done "defending" pump shotguns? I haven't impugned them. Just for the sake of the discussion, if anybody isn't interested in semiautomatic shotguns, you don't have to tell us.

A while back I had picked up a 1301 because "Oh hey, neat." It's what I do sometimes, and as I mentioned in the first post, I fall down rabbit holes, I also enjoy run on sentences.

Pump shotties aren't for me to poop on, I still have the KSG, the red-headed stepchild of pumps. The thread where I talk about it is around somewhere, where I talk about practicing and hopefully not accidentally shooting the boiler.

No firearm is a panacea.

With a pump, you really need to put the time in racking. With a semiauto, you need to test loads. With both, you need to practice feeding and clearing. Regardless of the shotgun you buy, if you just lean it in a closet and think you're done you've made a terrible mistake.

In ancient times, I had some time with a Serbu Super Shorty. If'n you want to pump, it's really something. The rounds are out of the gate so fast, recoil is only a thing for people with no experience. The problem is capacity. I'd say they're ideal for home defense.. If you're careful.

We can all agree that shotguns are well suited for solving problems.


Arc.
______________________________
"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash
"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman
Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM
"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

 
Posts: 27022 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sourdough44
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I’m more in the hunting segment, when it comes to ownership, though nothing wrong with multiple roles.

My upper end are 2 M2’s, a 12 & 20. I like shorter barrels, mostly predator hunting & formerly turkeys with the 12 ga.

I also have a Browning Gold in 12, with a ‘Gold Fusion’ in 20 ga. The Browning 12 is a little heavier, but has always cycled fine with routine maintenance.

I don’t pretend to be ‘the quiet professional’, but just like building a barn, or working on a vehicle, tools alone don’t make the carpenter.

With the M2 doing what it does, never felt the need to consider an M4. Even for hunting, the SBE is popular, I’m content with specialty 3” loads if needed, over 3.5” steel. JMHO

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sourdough44,
 
Posts: 6194 | Location: WI | Registered: February 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"Member"
Picture of cas
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Of all that experience, my Benelli M1S90 is absolutely the least pleasant shotgun I've ever discharged. It is downright painful to shoot.


The you need to get out more. Wink
I'd let you try a few that would make the M1 feel like a .22LR Big Grin


quote:
Originally posted by sourdough44:
With the M2 doing what it does, never felt the need to consider an M4. Even for hunting, the SBE is popular, I’m content with specialty 3” loads if needed, or 3.5” steel. JMHO


I agree to a large extent. Only I did finally consider an M4 and honestly regret it. As for specialty loads, I said talking with my nephew this week turkey hunting, 2 3/4" TSS loads are amazing and can do a lot. But you know what works even better, 3.5" TSS." Wink
(you know, if you don't mind $13 a shot lol)
 
Posts: 21123 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diablo Blanco
Picture of dking271
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First, great deal on the M1 it should serve you well. I also believe you are correct that any semi-auto can be unreliable and should be thoroughly tested with intended ammo. I have many semi-auto shotguns but only 2 tactical semis. My two tactical semis are a Remington 11=87 Police I have owned since 1994 and a Benelli M4 which I have had for about 4 years. I also own 3 A400 Beretta hunting shotguns which is the same gas system the 1300 is built upon. The cost of getting the Benelli M4 922(r) compliant was ridiculous and the gun before that was overpriced. That said, it eats everything including light target loads and has yet to choke on anything. My Remington 11-87 has yet to choke, but I’ve only shot heavy loads through it, and it has about of 1/3 the rounds through it as the M4. Neither shotgun is on home defense duty, but the M4 is set up for it.

Your M1 should be a great choice to protect your family.


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Posts: 2976 | Location: Middle-TN | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 1KPerDay
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Sweet M1. I agree that a pump shotgun is among the most complicated and non-intuitive firearms for A NON-REGULAR SHOOTER to understand and use safely. Particularly administratively loading and unloading. A good semi-auto shotgun is a superior choice for novice or infrequent use IMO.

Similarly, people often recommend small revolvers for new CCW/novice shooters. IMO probably one of the worst recommendations.

OP what are your thoughts on the Benelli M3? Funky cool but strange to actually use IME.


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My hovercraft is full of eels.
 
Posts: 3227 | Registered: February 27, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
Picture of P220 Smudge
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
With the factory stock, it was quite unpleasant with full power loads.

But with this aftermarket Mesa Tactical stock with Limbsaver pad as shown, it's just mildly unpleasant. Big Grin


Hell, mine hurts with just #8's. I don't know what the deal is, but I've got a friend who wants it and I'm split between selling it to him or trying the stock setup you related. The Mesa Urbino is kind of a must for length of pull anyways, I just don't know that I want to put money into it if it still rattles my teeth when I'm done.

To be fair, I'm not making an argument against semi-auto shotguns or in favor of pumps or any of that nonsense, I'm just commenting on my experience with my own Benelli M1 per that being the topic in the OP. Really cool shotgun, iconic design, but not fun to shoot, at least for me and so far.

My father had a Winchester Super-X Model 1 that he would use when we shot clays. I got to shoot it only a few times growing up because well, it was his prized gun. It was the first real firearm he bought back when he was a young man getting established in the world, and he babied it. I got all the other guns, some of them before he died, and some after. By some fluke of my sister throwing a temper tantrum, and his misguided attempt to mollify it, it's the one gun she wound up with. She had zero idea what it was and couldn't have cared less because it was just "some shotgun," until she figured out that it was the one gun I was upset that I thought he'd sold or traded away before he passed. When she learned I had wanted it and was a little stung I didn't wind up with it, a smug, satisfied look washed over her face, and I decided to let little sister have her win. It is everything the Benelli isn't - smooth, soft-recoiling, and an absolute joy to shoot. I would've liked to have wound up with it, and were she at all interested, there are plenty of others I inherited that I would trade her in order to have it, but she just wanted something I couldn't have and she got it.

quote:
Originally posted by cas:
The you need to get out more. Wink
I'd let you try a few that would make the M1 feel like a .22LR Big Grin


Hey, hey now, don't skip over that whole prior paragraph qualifying that statement. Big Grin

I'm just not a recoil junkie anymore. I used to be, but I've got a lot of hard miles on me for a guy my age combined with a couple health conditions that eat muscle mass, so I'm just not into taking that kind of abuse if I don't have to. My Garands or 1903A4 are about as much as I'm willing to tolerate anymore.


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Posts: 17228 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of cas
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Fit and feel go a looong way with a shotgun. I thought my friend's 930 was most unpleasant. The recoil wasn't bad, I just found the gun "harsh" and jarring. Dunno why.

I've posted before about the police M2's I bought that both the stocks spacers were set up wrong AND cast was set up for lefties. They beat my face till I switched them. I felt bad for the cops in that department.
 
Posts: 21123 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arcwelder
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Fit is important with almost anything, so it's weird that more people don't find AKs ridiculously short.

As I finger fuck these guns, just cycling the dummies, I think I'll skip the optic on the 940. I'm compelled because it's there, but all of these are "aim with flashlight" duty. My general opinion remains that the A300 and 940 will be what most people buy if that's not already true.

LOP and comfort are huge, I think I'm OK on each of these. Until the shooting starts won't know for sure. I'll bring them all and shoot side by side. One thing I can't do is go as fast as possible, which is a bummer. Range rules.

The weight of a firearm, and its action produce felt recoil. Any pump dumps all the recoil into you. A semiauto is using energy for the action and should have less. But people are even more diverse than firearms. "Felt recoil" isn't exactly recoil, but the violence of an action may be more jarring than the energy sapped to move it. A Thompson for instance. Your intended purpose, your ammo, and your physical makeup all go into this as well.

Ideally, you shoot as much as possible. If you're like me and shoot less than you used to, you should be training in your basement or some such, while you listen to podcasts or whatever. Waaaay back when I was shooting a lot, I dinnint do this because I was on a line weekly or more. Dry fire training and having dummy rounds for me really became a thing once I had a son and free daylight hours were premium.

If you don't put the hours in, it's going to go as bad as possible when someone plays "kill me kill you" with you. Muscle memory is a thing. As I said earlier, anyone buying a gun then just leaning it in a closet thinking they're done... The learning curve will be abrupt and memorable... If you just spend your "tv" time also drawing from CC or feeding a shotgun, your body will remember.

I'm sure you've heard me say this before, but when you're at your local fun store and find something, either buy it or put money down. Never simply walk away from something that holds your interest. If you're going to build knowledge and experience, you just might buy some turds along the way, but you have actual knowledge then. The Internet in all its forms is both limitless and limited in what you can actually learn from it.

I hate the term "lived experience." It sounds fancy and insightful, but it uses an extra unnecessary word. Either of them. The stove is hot, guys. You will learn it in person at some point regardless of how much media you consume. Over the years, I've "wasted" money on guns to learn in person they aren't right for me for some reason.

The M1 that happened to be on the wall one day, was the cheapest Benelli I'd ever bumped into so I said yes. It was time to learn about Benellis. No joke as I was talking to the owner, he answered a phone call and said "The Benelli? No, I'm watching it walk out the door as we speak." That's not the first time something like that has happened. Never walk away without money down if you're interested. You might want to know how to tell hard use, or judge whether the price is right, so you want to ask a forum or use a search engine... OK. But someone like me who is comfortable learning by doing will eat your lunch every time.

At some point I'll take a "group shot." I'm still waiting for some parts, but I'll tell you that ordering mag tubes for the Benellis, which were supposed to be flush, failed both times.

In life, never make the same mistake twice. Find new and innovative ways to fail. Hopefully you become wiser. If nothing else, you will serve as a warning to others.


Arc.
______________________________
"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash
"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman
Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM
"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

 
Posts: 27022 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ice age heat wave,
cant complain.
Picture of MikeGLI
posted Hide Post
Great shotgun, I'm sure it'll serve you well, and the price is even better. I have zero want for another shotgun, but at that price, I'm buying all day and twice on Sunday. Well done.

Shotguns are the one thing I did right in the realm of firearms. We all start somewhere, we try things, try other things, try new things, try old things. My first shotgun was a Benelli M4, interestingly enough, I never wanted for another shotgun. If only I started that way with rifles, pistols, WML, and holsters, I would have saved some generational wealth in wasted time/money. Fuck it, it comes with the territory. The only reason I have a second shotgun is I was gifted a Beretta 1201, which I really do love.

If I were buying for your purposes, I'd go semiauto and never look back.




NRA Life Member
Steak: Rare. Coffee: Black. Bourbon: Neat.
 
Posts: 9700 | Location: Orlando, Florida | Registered: July 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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