Second go at 305 yards with AE55.
2-3/4" vertical and 2-3/8" horizontal.



1-3/4” vertical and 2-1/4” horizontal.



4-3/4" vertical and 5-3/8” horizontal.



1-1/2" vertical and 2-1/2" horizontal.



10” vertical and 3-1/2" horizontal.



If I cherry picked the groups, I could state that FMJ ammo is easily sub-MOA in this rifle out to 300 yards with 55 FMJ ammo. Maybe even 1/2 MOA potential "if I do my part." But only the 3rd, 5th, and 7th groups are centered on the target. If all groups were overlayed on one target, there’s roughly 10” of vertical and 11” of horizontal dispersion. That’s 3+ MOA, which is realistic for 55 grain FMJ with a quality barrel and chamber. Expect 4-5 MOA for a low- to mid-grade rifle.

That is very interesting. I do not believe I have seen anything similar with AE 55 grain ammunition.

From a builder's perspective, a 3-shot group shows a baseline of the rifle's potential. It's unrealistic for me to add the expense of purchasing or handloading match ammo to shoot five or 10-shot groups to proof a customer rifle, unless the customer specifically pays me for more range time and more ammo.

I don't know of any other rifle manufacturer that guarantees 1/2 MOA or less with five or ten shots. It's usually stated and expected that it's three shots under a specified group size.

Fulton Armory guarantees under 1.5 MOA for their latest classic match rifle.

Five or 10 shot gorups is on the new ower to invest their time and money on range trips.

For my personal rifles, I do five or ten shot groups, and better yet, I post verified match results. But new customer rifles get three shots and that's it.

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
I don't know of any other rifle manufacturer that guarantees 1/2 MOA or less with five or ten shots. It's usually stated and expected that it's three shots under a specified group size.

Five-shot group guarantees are pretty rare, but they exist. It appears that some manufacturers which once stated the guarantee is with 5 shots have gone silent on the number of rounds. When I began discussing precision rifle options with builders, they stated that guarantees are tough. The majority of the gun owners don't have the marksmanship skills to produce a tight 5-round group -- regardless of how accurate the rifle really is. The manufacturers regularly received customer complaints that the rifles can't shoot as guaranteed. I also suspect that rifle builders often don't have staff who can shoot accurate 5-round groups on demand -- day after day after day.

GA Precision -- 5 rounds for 3/8 MOA rifles. I have a 308 and a 6.5CM with this guarantee.

JP Rifles -- I don't think they list the number of rounds anymore, but a fellow competitor with a JP bolt action showed me his 5-round test target that came with the rifle.

American Precision Arms -- I considered them before I went with GAP. 1/4 and 3/8 MOA with 5 rounds. It looks like they don't produce rifles anymore.

TacOps -- They guaranteed 1/4 MOA with 5 shots for a while. With FGMM 168 their test targets shipped with the rifles were often in .1 inch ballpark.

Surgeon and HS Precision guaranteed 3/8 and 1/2 MOA for a while with 5 shots. I don't see the details on their websites now.

Kimber sporter .22lr rifles had the 5-round guarantee. Mine shipped with a 5-round target. Sadly, they aren't made anymore.

Anshutz listed 5-round groups for their guarantee for a while. I don't see details on their website now.

Are those accuracy guarantees with any 'match' ammo, or with something specific like Federal Gold Medal Match?

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Five-shot group guarantees are pretty rare, but they exist. It appears that some manufacturers which once stated the guarantee is with 5 shots have gone silent on the number of rounds. When I began discussing precision rifle options with builders, they stated that guarantees are tough. The majority of the gun owners don't have the marksmanship skills to produce a tight 5-round group -- regardless of how accurate the rifle really is. The manufacturers regularly received customer complaints that the rifles can't shoot as guaranteed. I also suspect that rifle builders often don't have staff who can shoot accurate 5-round groups on demand -- day after day after day.

GA Precision -- 5 rounds for 3/8 MOA rifles. I have a 308 and a 6.5CM with this guarantee.

JP Rifles -- I don't think they list the number of rounds anymore, but a fellow competitor with a JP bolt action showed me his 5-round test target that came with the rifle.

American Precision Arms -- I considered them before I went with GAP. 1/4 and 3/8 MOA with 5 rounds. It looks like they don't produce rifles anymore.

TacOps -- They guaranteed 1/4 MOA with 5 shots for a while. With FGMM 168 their test targets shipped with the rifles were often in .1 inch ballpark.

Surgeon and HS Precision guaranteed 3/8 and 1/2 MOA for a while with 5 shots. I don't see the details on their websites now.

Kimber sporter .22lr rifles had the 5-round guarantee. Mine shipped with a 5-round target. Sadly, they aren't made anymore.

Anshutz listed 5-round groups for their guarantee for a while. I don't see details on their website now.

The last time I checked (recently), Tikka still “guarantees” sub-MOA precision for its centerfire rifles. That is for five-shot groups with proper ammunition using its “tactical” or “target” models and for three-shot groups for the rest. All of the Tikka rifles I’ve owned have been capable of producing such groups on a regular basis. Every time? No, but more often than not when zeroing and checking for precision.

As fritz mentions, manufacturers are understandably reluctant to make such a guarantee. What is “proper” ammunition, and the big issue is shooter skill and methods. Recently have I been around other shooters who were attempting to zero their hunting rifles and I am sometimes amazed by how little most of them know about the proper process. Most of them could take a rifle that came with a 0.25 MOA test target and hit a 6 inch target at 100 yards only by chance.

As for ammunition, the times I’ve seen warranty claims about poor precision discussed, the manufacturer will send the gun back with a target that was fired with a specific load. I have had very good results with various Federal and Hornady “match” loads. This is something I also often see in online tests of rifles and ammunition. Loads intended for hunting usually do not yield as precise results as something like Gold Medal Match or Hornady ELD-M.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
Are those accuracy guarantees with any 'match' ammo, or with something specific like Federal Gold Medal Match?

They generally recommend Federal GMM or Hornady match. I've seen Black Hills match listed a few times. Corbon match was listed as one option with one rifle, but that was a long time ago.

I performed a sorta-tall-target test in August, as I experienced the need to dial more elevation than predicted for FGMM 69 at distances of 300 to 500-ish yards. Using cardboard at 100 yards and FGMM 69, I confirmed zero (I thought I confirmed zero -- more on this to come), then dialed up 5, 10, 15, and 20 MOA. At my elevation in the summer, 20 MOA gets this rifle beyond 600 yards, so these are reasonable testing parameters.

Bottom line – the rifle's Vortex PST 2-10x over-dials by about 2-3%. Reasonably close for this purpose, and the optic doesn’t seem to be the source of the elevation issues.

I shot 4-round groups at each elevation setting. Yet again, winds were ugly, this time from my 3 o’clock. Bullets were pushed to the left by 1.25 to 2 inches. JBM says a 10 mph wind pushes bullets .8 inches laterally, so I experienced 15-25 mph winds.

The 4-round FGMM groups at 100 yards measured:
- .38” vertical & 1.32” horizontal
- .52” vertical & .97” horizontal
- .56” vertical & .54” horizontal
- .38” vertical & .65” horizontal
- .39” vertical & 1.62” horizontal
No pictures, just data. These vertical dispersion figures are in line with my 3-round groups for FGMM 69 at 100 yards.

I tested muzzle velocities the following week (8/14/25), to further try to eliminate elevation issues. I used a Magnetspeed attached to the Surefire can, with steel targets at 304 yards. Winds from my 2 o’clock. The plates are 12” squares, which measure 16” diagonally. I aimed 1.5 to 2 MOA right of the 3 o’clock point on the plate, which is about 4-5 inches off-plate. Impacts were roughly 7-10 inches left of the 3 o’clock point, resulting in total drift of 11-15 inches. JBM says 10 mph wind results in 8” of drift – about 14-19 mph.

The muzzle velocity testing showed that all MVs were equal to, if not a touch higher than, my prior metrics. Which means my dope issues don’t appear to be related to MV.

First 2 plates, with FGMM 69
- I dialed 6 MOA on the scope for the right plate, which I think was my previous elevation. I shot the right target with 5 rounds, then dialed down .25 MOA for the left plate. Being a dipshit, I fired shot #6 in error at the right target, with the result being the lowest impact. Doh!
- The next 4 rounds went on the left target, with 5.75 MOA on the scope.
- Right plate of 2.5” vertical and 3.5” horizontal. Remove low round #6 and the group tightens to 1.5” vertical.
- Left plate of 1.75” vertical and 3” horizontal. From what I roughly measured, had I shot round #6 on the left plate, the overall group size would have been the same.




Second 2 plates, with Hornady 75 HPBT Black
- I dialed down to 5.25 MOA for both plates. I recalled that H-75 has roughly the same MV as FGMM 69, but the Hornady bullet has a better ballistic coefficient.
- Hornady 75’s accuracy generally isn’t affected too badly by a direct switch from F-69, so I didn’t burn any additional rounds between the ammo shift. As a result, the H-75 accuracy could have been a touch better – it normally equals or exceeds that of FGM-69.
- Right plate of 3.5” vertical and 3” horizontal.
- Left plate of 2.5” vertical and 8.75” horizontal. That stray round on the 9 o’clock point was the result of a gust of over 25 mph.




Third 2 plates, with Winchester 69 SMK
- I bought a fair amount of this ammo during ammo panics, thinking it would be a good training alternative to FGMM 69. Unfortunately, it doesn’t have Federal’s consistent accuracy. When the Winchester is good, it’s really good. But sometimes not so much. MV is a 200 fps higher than F-69. This is hot ammo.
- I dialed down to 5 MOA on the right plate, then to 4.5 MOA for the left plate. This was all guessing, as I didn’t my have dope books.
- Right plate of 1-7/8 inches vertical and 5” horizontal
- Left plate of 4.5” vertical and 7” horizontal. These two plates reveal the Win’s wonkiness.




Fourth 2 plages, with Hornady 55 Vmax
- I dialed down to 4 MOA for both plates. I find that 55 Vmax is very accurate in calm conditions, but things go a bit sideways in winds at longer distances. Winds died down a touch for this ammo, but it was definitely not calm conditions.
- Right plate of 2” vertical and 3” horizontal. About as good as it gets with Vmax in the wind.
- Left plate of 4” vertical and 5” horizontal. A little worse than I’d like, but I probably was showing some fatigue after a day of running a chain saw.




Bottom line – the System still works. Not my best day, and possibly not the best accuracy due to the Magnetospeed. But still a number of 5-round groups held sub-MOA verticals, in tough winds, at 304 yards. Also -- all shots landed on steel, no warmups, 4 types of ammo with no "sighter" rounds between ammo types. Yes, the 5-round groups here were larger than the 3-round groups in previous outings, but the results still show the System is consistent over time, target distances, ammo, and conditions.

8/16/25 – (RE)confirming zero at 100 yards. This time on steel, and moving to longer distances, all with FGMM 69. Well, I quickly determined the scope’s zero was set too low. Raising it by 2.75 MOA put the rifle dead on. I didn’t take pics of the first 2 groups, as they were a little messy in determining the correct zero. But the 3rd group was dead on – 5 rounds with 1/4” vertical and 1-1/8” horizontal. Yep, that’s 5 rounds in 1/4 MOA vertical. I aimed at the 9 0’clock hole, which indicates the wind effect for the day.

Here’s a perfect example of an inturdwebs target for which the shooter might state, “This here AR15 is a 1/4 MOA shooter. All day long. Capable of this at long distances. When I do my part.”

Well, the stars aligned for me on this target, displaying accuracy that I probably can’t produce for many dozens of targets. It might even take me a hundred targets to achieve this again. This is why I state that a single refrigerator-trophy-target is likely not indicative of the Sytem’s norm.




On to 205 yards. Previous stated 1.5 MOA elevation on the scope, which was fine. I didn’t take a picture. 5 rounds with 1.5” vertical and 4.25” horizontal.

On to 305 yards. I dialed 4.5 MOA elevation for the right target, which I immediately found was too much. POA was the left point of the plate for all shots. 5 rounds in 1.5” vertical and 4.25” horizontal (.47 MOA vertical). I dialed back to 3.5 MOA elevation for the left target. 5 rounds in 2.5” vertical and 1.5” horizontal (.78 MOA vertical).




On to 413 yards. I estimated 7.25 MOA elevation, which was good. POA was 2 MOA left of the 9 o’clock point for all shots. 6 rounds in 3.5” vertical and 10” horizontal. JBM puts the effective wind on this group at 7 mph (the left-most impact) to 18 mph (the right-most impact). Winds were from my 7-8 o’clock. .70 MOA vertical




As near as I can figure, the scope’s elevation ring wasn’t tightened properly. 2 of the 3 set screws were fine, but one was virtually rattling in the wind. So…the elevation turret was generally off, but when I cranked bank to the 100-yard zero -- and hit the zero stop -- on the tall target day, the turret slipped back to the correct elevation. And then when I dialed up elevation the next time out, the ring slipped again.

Yep, I’m a dipshit for not going through the proper paces earlier. Hopefully a lesson learned.

Good shooting as always.

Perhaps you mentioned it earlier, but I don't see it now: what's your scope?

The scope is a Vortex PST Gen 2, 2-10x. It's a decent scope, although I know there are ones with better glass and internals. Almost every likes optics with the magnification of the Hubble telescope, however this rifle shows that accurate shooting can be accomplished with moderate magnification.

Driving over the receiver & scope with my 4Runner probably didn't help matters when it comes to maintaining the zero. But there's nothing like faint tire marks to give a rifle a customized look.

As the Dark Lord of optics pointed out, what matter most when shooting is being able to see the target well enough to aim at it. If we can do that with the sight(s) we have, then although other factors can be important, we have already achieved the first and most critical.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
But there's nothing like faint tire marks to give a rifle a customized look.

Switching things up a bit. This time with the bolt action 308 -- planning on multiple days of 3-round groups on the same plates. Much of this will depend on how inquisitive the cattle are. This time of year might be better than mid-summer. The owner of the cows has sold the yearling calves and he's feeding the heifers on his part of the range. But...cattle like to rub up against things, stomp on them, and poop on them. So, from early November.

412 yards, prone, fishtailing winds of 1-7 mph from my 11 to 1 o'clock. Left plate 2-3/4" vertical and 2-1/2" horizontal variation. Right plate 2-3/4" vertical and 1" horizontal




527 yards. Left plate 3-1/4" vertical and 3-1/2" horizontal. Right plate 2-1/4" vertical and 4-1/2" horizontal.




It's easier to produce consistent POI accuracy if the shooter stays in position between all shots. Breaking position adds potential variation between shots. Shooting from different days adds another level of variation. Hopefully the targets will remain relatively in place across days or weeks, and will continue to show previous impacts.

Sometimes things don't go as planned. 8 days after the first 3-round groups, same targets & distances, same rifle & ammo. Cows knocked down the 412 yard targets, but didn't mess them up. Winds of 1-5 mph, switching from 11 to 1 o'clock.

Starting out at 412 yards on the left target, with the final 3 rounds left from a previous box of ammo. All goes as expected. The 6 total rounds now measure 2.75" vertical and 4.25" horizontal. Load 2 mags with the 20 rounds of a different box and move to the right target. Ruh-roh, 2 rounds land very low, near the 6 o'clock point. My technique seemed good. Checked the suppressor and it was still screwed on tightly. Round 3 lands high on the plate, the bolt is stuck, I had to whack the bolt with my fist to open the action, and the empty case doesn't have a primer. So....I proceed to dump 15 rounds on this plate, with impacts showing huge vertical variation -- roughly 12-13 inches. I drive back to my "base area", grab 2 more targets, grab a rebar stand for the far target.



I place a square plate at 411 yards, hit it with 2 rounds, both of which are a little low. I place another square plate on a rebar stand at 527 yards, hit it with the box's remaining 3 rounds -- one impacts the very bottom of the plate, the other two near the top hanger. Ugh. I grab another box of ammo and load more mags. 6 rounds on the 411 yard square target and all is good -- 2-1/8" vertical, on POA, and about 2 inches above the 2 wonky low rounds. On to the 527 yard square target. I land 8 rounds on the plate, centered vertically at POA, with a vertical variation of 2 inches. Yeehaw, back to normal. OK, I just experienced a completely crap box of ammo. Of its 20 rounds, I had 11 or 12 popped primers, 5 loose primers that jammed the action when trying to load the next round, 6 stuck bolts, and noticeable variations in muzzle noise levels throughout the box.

Here's the 411 yard target with 8 impacts. 6 "good" rounds centered vertically, and the 2 "bad ammo" rounds just below.




I completely repainted the right diamond at 412 yards. Next time out, it will start as a clean target. 15 rounds of wonky ammo made for crappy vertical. I painted over the 2 wonky ammo low hits on the plate at 411 yards. The dividing line where I held paper and re-sprayed is clearly visible here. Going forward, I want the target to indicate the results of good ammo.




Now back to the diamond targets at 527 yards. I land 3 more on each plate. The left plate now measures 5" vertical and 5.5" horizontal. The right plate measures 4.25" vertical and 7.25" horizontal.




I also painted over the 3 wonky impacts on the square plate at 527 yards. The paint lines are clearly visible above and below the good 8 rounds on the target.





I've never seen a box of match-grade ammo with such crappy results, and what seems to be piss poor quality control. Corbon ammo tends to be fairly hot, but these loads have been pretty accurate for me. I have only a few boxes left, so I'll see what happens over the next shooting session or two. I wouldn't paint over wildly-varying impacts if I wasn't certain the ammo wasn't cause. I did run a chainsaw before shooting, but that's pretty normal for me this time of year. Probably not my best technique day, however it wasn't a bad day. Given that cattle do what cattle do, I'll see if I still have targets & stands next time out.

Just a few thoughts and observations about 3 round groups etc.....

First of all a well known Bench Rest competitor once commented to me "If 3 rounds won't shoot 5 shots for sure won't". In other words when starting load developement you might be wasting a lot of time ammo and barrel life shooting 5 shot groups that were obviously not going to shoot. One thing bullet pullers are for!

There's a huge difference between "Accuracy" and "Precision". Precision is low dispersion between shots similar to "tight groups". Accuracy his hitting close to the center of your target. You could have a 1/4 group but if its in the 7 ring or the butt of an animal your precision doesn't really matter!

3 round groups are of little use other than for beginning load developement for a Match rifle that you are going to be shooting 10 shot groups with. It doesn't matter if the first 3 are good if the next 7 are hitting all over the target. There's much to be said for 20,30 and 50 round groups statistically to determine your dispersion.

On the other hand if you are shooting 10 rounds at a big game animal something is seriously wrong with your Accuracy! Varmints are a different story. My point here is that I think for a Magnum big game rifle 3rd groups CAN be legitimate because you best not be needing more to take down a deer or elk.

There is some statistical comparison between 10 3rd groups taken on different days and 3 10rd groups. For a hunting rifle I'd rather have 10 3rd groups dead center in 1" on 10 different days. On a Match rifle I want the tightest 10rd groups on a given day and I'm going to adjust that day for accuracy and hitting dead center. IMHO there are totally valid reasons to use 3, 5, 10 and 50rd groups depending on the rifle, the caliber, the purpose and the conditions. The Hornady Podcast had a couple pods talking about high round count groups and what they mean statistically, you might check them out.

Being from always windy Oklahoma we used to call horizontally strung groups "Weather Reports". I was talking with a National Championship Level F Class competitor while he was showing me his groups on target. He commented on one of his groups he was looking for vertical dispersion because Horizontal dispersion was usually due to wind conditions, especially at the 600 and 1000yds he competes at. If you are analyzing ammo for longer ranges look for the lowest Velocity variations "SD's" and the resultant lower vertical dispersion.

A couple different high end competitors have written or mentioned directly to me that going with the lowest BC bullets and lowest wind drift is the coming thing in Long Range shooting. With all the Chrono's and good Ballistics programs you pretty much know your elevation calls, it's making the wind calls that takes the most skill and/or luck so bullets with the least drift are the most forgiving in making long range hits.

So anyway how many shots you include in a group just depends. The more the better but consider if the number of shots might not be better applied on multiple days under different temps and conditions. And for some rifles larger round counts just aren't practical. If someone wants to shoot 10rd 458 Lott hunting load groups they are more of a man than I'll ever be! LOL.

Anyway I hope some of this might at least make you think. I'm still learning and take every chance I get to listen to the best shooters and take what I can from them cuz I ain't one of them yet!................DJ

3 days later, now the 3rd set of 3-round groups with the 308. Chainsaw duty until early afternoon. I break for shooting fun and see that all targets are undisturbed and ready to go. But just as I load mags and attach the suppressor, I realize last night's dinner meeting food isn't playing well with my digestive system. Can't wait until I commute back home, it's time to get to the woods with a shovel RIGHT NOW.

Whew, back to shooting, although I wouldn't say I was hitting on all cylinders. Wind at my shooting position was 2-7mph from my 5 o'clock. But once I looked through the scope, I suspected things were different down range. It turned out that downrange winds were about 1-5mph from my 11 o'clock, which I confirmed when I went downrange to check the targets. I fired one box of 20 that day -- 3 at each of the plates, plus 2 more at the closest target. This was a good box of ammo -- no popped primers, no sticky bolt issues.

412 yards
First up was the clean diamond on the right. 3 rounds with not very much vertical variation, but a fair amount of horizontal.
With 5 rounds the variation is 3-3/4" vertical and 6-1/4" horizontal. More on that in a moment.

On to the left diamond with 3 more hits. With 3x3 rounds the dispersion is 3-3/4" vertical and 4-1/4" horizontal. Vertical increased by an inch, horizontal didn't change.

Back to the square plate with 3 rounds. Actually at 410 yards, not 411 as noted previously. With 3x3 rounds (not including the painted-over wonky box impacts), the dispersion is 2.5" vertical and 6.25" horizontal. A slight increase in vertical, but no change in horizontal.




527 yards.
Started with the square plate, 3 more rounds, now 11 total impacts -- not including the painted-over wonky box impacts. Woohoo, vertical dispersion of 2.25" and horizontal of 9.5". The new hits were almost exactly on top of some of the old ones. A detailed review of the photos shows evidence of the new impacts, however with a quick glance the target looks little different than it was 3 days earlier.

Diamond on the right. 4.25" vertical and 8.25" horizontal. No change in vertical, some increase in horizontal.

Diamond on the left. 6.5" vertical and 8.25" horizontal. Dispersion increases in both directions.




I had 2 rounds left after shooting six 3-round groups. Back to the 412 yards, the painted-over strap-hanging target with only 3 rounds. Hold my beer, I got this. And of course I land 2 hits almost on top of each other, but noticeably lower than the first 3 rounds. Just a slight lapse in attention resulted in a noticeable POI shift, almost doubling the vertical dispersion.

"She's a tack driver. Sub-MOA all day long, if I do my part. lol"
Right up there with "We're here to help." and "The check's in the mail."

Continues to be impressive.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
First of all a well known Bench Rest competitor once commented to me "If 3 rounds won't shoot 5 shots for sure won't".

Yep, the inability to produce a decent 3-round group pretty much spells poor results for just about any number of rounds shot. But it can be uncertain if a single, tight 3-round group shows the overall System's accuracy. That good old cherry-picked refrigerator-trophy target. In my experience, a System which consistently produces tight 3-round groups on the same POA will almost certainly produce tight groups for just about any number of rounds shot.

IMO the 1-MOA dot drill is among the best indicators of true System capabilities, especially at the relatively shorter distances where wind isn't a POI factor. Each dot becomes its own target. Assuming the shooter has optics which clearly show the impact location of each shot, the shooter receives immediate technique feedback -- did sights stay on target, did POI differ from POA, did POI coincide with sight movement. Dot drill "scoring" is less forgiving for shooter errors. There's no 9-ring or 8-ring for "pretty darn close" impacts -- only hit or miss, 1 point or 0 points. Regardless of shooting competition style (or type of hunting), if person/System consistently performs well with dot drills, performance will be good with other scoring methods.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
A couple different high end competitors have written or mentioned directly to me that going with the lowest BC bullets and lowest wind drift is the coming thing in Long Range shooting. With all the Chrono's and good Ballistics programs you pretty much know your elevation calls, it's making the wind calls that takes the most skill and/or luck so bullets with the least drift are the most forgiving in making long range hits.

Yep, this has been known for quite awhile. F-Class folks have worked through countless iterations of bullet types, muzzle velocities, and calibers. F-Class experience has provided PRS/NRL/steel/precision rifle competitors with a great wealth of ballistics. Steel matches have built on the F-Class knowledge -- adapting it to lower-recoiling calibers, multiple targets, multiple shooting positions, more variable weather conditions, and tighter time limits.

Maintaining elevation on F-Class targets is sometimes called "holding the water line". Impacts that are an inch or two low may drop the score from a 10 to a 9, or a 9 to an 8. Similar concepts occur in many steel matches, as there may be very few square target plates. Round plates are similar to what occurs with F-Class impact locations. A common way to mess with steel match shooters is using diamond-shaped targets. If wind calls are a little off, elevation better be very consistent.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I just experienced a completely crap box of ammo. Of its 20 rounds, I had 11 or 12 popped primers, 5 loose primers that jammed the action when trying to load the next round, 6 stuck bolts, and noticeable variations in muzzle noise levels throughout the box.

A casual shooter buddy asked how I was certain that the wonky accuracy from this box was the fault of the rifle/ammo/sights rather than that of the shooter. It's a great question, and one that sometimes doesn't have a straightforward answer.

In theory, the rifle/ammo/sights portion of the System should be the most repeatable. The rifle needs a solid fit of action & barrel, and the barrel must not have much throat erosion. The ammo must have a quality bullet, consistent MV, and play well with the barrel. The sights must be attached solidly, be sighted in correctly, and be able to adjust for various target distances. Then it comes down to the human factor -- does the shooter possess solid fundamentals, which are applied consistently. As shooters gain marksmanship skills, they also gain experience of their most common weaknesses.

Years ago in a Snipers Hide precision rifle course, Frank Galli asked me to spot his target. He was confirming a 100 yard zero on his GA Precision 308, using Black Hills match ammo with Hornady bullets. The paper target was well used from the course, but there was a small section with no holes. Frank's first shot landed maybe a bullet's width left of the POA -- we both saw it. I couldn't see where his second shot landed, and Frank was quiet. I though his third shot may have widened the 1st shot's hole ever so slightly to the right. Again, Frank was silent. His fourth shot definitely widened the bullet hole to the right. Frank now stated that he felt all 4 rounds went through the same hole. Which means I saw Frank Galli shoot a 4-round group with no vertical variation and horizontal dispersion of less than 1/10 inch. I told Frank that he should adjust his sights 1 click right to be perfectly zeroed. Frank replied that his common miss in the heat of competition was "yanking" a shot 1/4 MOA or .1 mil right of POA. Therefore, his steel-match rifles were all zeroed one click left of POA.

That was a stunning realization to me -- that he knew his weaknesses that well. And a "weakness" that is more accurate than my best day's results.

Over time I've struggled with various technique issues that compromise accuracy. My most common problem is sending rounds high, caused by excessive downward cheek weld pressure and/or releasing pressure on a rear squeeze bag as I break the shot. The high impacts become more common as I shoot from less stable positions, such as kneeling & standing barriers. Sending a round 1 MOA high from barriers occurs more than I'd like to admit.

Based on my experience with my own faults and issues related to equipment, this is why I felt that one box of ammo was the most likely cause of poor accuracy. More on this to come....