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Yeah, that M14 video guy... |
I'm pretty set in my ways with what I like but that doesn't always work for other people. I've got a friend that's looking for a new deer rifle. He'd like it for Elk out to 400 yards. He's leaning toward the Browning X-bolt hell's canyon in 300WSM if available in that chamber. He'd like a cartridge that will retain knock-down power at that distance. He's a very experienced and quite successful hunter and is usually gets a deer or elk nearly every year. He's been running an old Mauser in 270 but he's ready to step up to something "better". He's a hunter and not a shooter. He only sights in his rifle just before deer season and calls it good. We've gone out the past two years just before hunting season and his Mauser usually shoots about 3" groups at 200 yards, if I remember correctly. His Remington 742 in 30-06 printed shotgun patterns at 200 so he ditched the 742 the last 2 years in a row. He usually hikes 5 to 10 miles a day during hunting season, so he would like to keep the weight down. He got an elk a couple of weeks ago. He's not a reloader at all and will be firing most likely Remington Core Lokt. I have zero experience with Browning X-bolts and my bolt gun experience is limited to traditional savage rifles and just recently Montana 1999 actions. The X-bolt appeals to him because it touts "no bedding required" but I'm fairly certain that that's the case with many off the shelf bolt actions these days. He also like the idea of a ported barrel. When we went out earlier this year, he shot my Savage/McMillan that I overhauled in 308 with a 5R Benchmark barrel and an original 3-screw factory trigger that I had tuned down to about 3.5 pounds. He was really impressed by the trigger and he wants something with a nice trigger. I also told him to consider a Tikka and I'm sure that there are others. Do you guys have any feedback on the Browning he's interested in or other comparable rifles in that price range. I think his budget is about $2k for rifle and scope. I'll direct him to this thread to review your comments. Tony. Owner, TonyBen, LLC, Type-07 FFL www.tonybenm14.com (Site under construction). e-mail: tonyben@tonybenm14.com | ||
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Member |
300WSM in a lightweight rifle is a LOT to handle. If he's not a shooter he may have trouble shooting it well. He may have trouble shooting it well even if he IS a shooter. | |||
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| Member |
Benny, I actually purchased a browning X bolt in .308 with Zeiss conquest for my then-wife in 2010. My shooting buddy and the guy my then-wife might have run off with owned a .300 WSM X-bolt. The X-Bolt was a well put together rifle and grouped rather well at 100 yards. I don't remember the exact group size or particular load. I did not shoot it past 100 yards for group size and I cannot comment on longer range accuracy. It had a rather novel button system for opening the bolt when the safety was on. Other than having the scope mounted, I did not see the need to do any modifications. She left before I could gather any real long term reliability or load data. The only real druthers I had with it was that it was made in Japan. I personally like the Tikas better, but it was more of a feel and finish vs a quantifiable difference. The .300 WSM my buddy had was also well made and required no mods. It had a stout but manageable recoil and a particularly loud report. IIRC my 30-06 was more comfortable to shoot. I didn't shoot it much nor did it endear itself to me enough to want one for myself. I recall one shot he made on a medium to small size NY doe at about 75 yards in a farm field. He caught it's rear quarter and just destroyed it, to the point where he lost good meat and had to do a follow up shot IOT put the deer out of it's misery. The deer was literally knocked down by hit but was struggling to get back up when we got to it. .300 WSM was IMHO too much cartridge for that deer. I cannot comment on it's suitability for Elk as I've never even tried to hunt Elk. I also remember him complaining about ammo cost and availability. I highly recommend earplugs if you are sitting next to someone shooting one of these. | |||
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| Saluki |
I've got a Tikka that I use for what your friend is looking for. T3 lite in .300WM it carries easily and shoots lights out with 180g corelocks. It is not fun to shoot off a bench. I've carried it on 6 elk hunts and plan to continue. ----------The weather is here I wish you were beautiful---------- | |||
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| Member |
Kimber Montana. I'm 100% sold on these rifles. X bolts are good guns, my friend has a brand new x bolt stainless stalker in 300wm and it's a really nice gun but it isn't all that light for the all day hiking. If I was looking at an x bolt is just stuck with my m70 extreme weather. Anyways, right now I'm on the kimber rifles, with the scope my 308 is a hair over 6lbs and last weekend I was shooting it out to 500yds at a turkey shoot with great results. Where I live the kimber is pretty much the go to for those long tough hunts. I have a 308 but a 300wsm will be my next one. If he really wants to save a bit of weight over a kimber Montana, tell him to look at the mountain ascent or the sub alpine. | |||
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| With bad intent |
Nothing wrong with he Xbolt but I think there better rifles out there. My go to for anything bigger than Deer is my Sako 85 Finnlight in 300WSM. Caliber is largely a moot point a tht distance youve stated. A good bullet and proper shot palcement are all thats needed. At 400 yards Id probably look closer at 308/7-08/30-06......all more than capable for Elk at 400 and dont carry the price or recoil of the 300WSM. I relaod for mine so its not terrible but its still not 308 cheap. Aside from maybe an accuracy bump, whats wrong with the 270? ________________________________ | |||
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| Member |
Just a heads up, but theres a bunch of Kimber Montanas on GB right now for 1099.00 "buy it now" thats the best deal I've seen on those yet. Theres even a few in 300wsm. I might grab one in 223. | |||
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Member |
I wouldn't say the X-Bolt is Browning's best offering but it's definitely not bad. My brother has one in 300 WM, it replaced his Browning A-Bolt II which was stolen in a home break in about 7 years ago. We both agree that while the X-Bolt is nice, the A-Bolt II is a better rifle. He's actually even tried to buy my A-Bolt II in 300 WM a few times but that's not a rifle I'll consider selling. You already mentioned another good one in Tikka and that would be a good one to check out. I'm kind of intrigued by some of the offerings from Bergara at the moment and am considering buying one to replace my SPS that my daughter has fallen in love with and has basically claimed. Tell your friend to check Bergara out as well. ___________________________ Not giving a damn since...whenever... | |||
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| Yeah, that M14 video guy... |
Thanks. Hopefully he will check in soon. He joined the forum today. Oh, and this IS NOT the same friend who blew his 300WM up with someone else's hand loads. Tony. Owner, TonyBen, LLC, Type-07 FFL www.tonybenm14.com (Site under construction). e-mail: tonyben@tonybenm14.com | |||
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E Pluribus Unum |
I don't think he needs to take the punishment of .300WSM for his intended purposes. Have him look at the .280 Rem. cartridges ballistics. Comparable to 7mm Rem Magnum in a non-magnum cartridge. Then look here... https://www.impactguns.com/mon...scrs-280rem-133.aspx Or here if he prefers a Monte Carlo stock... https://www.impactguns.com/mon...ccrs-280rem-025.aspx If he could find a nice, used, Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .280 Rem that would be a great score - the Model 70 isn't made in .280 presently. Oh wait... http://www.gunbroker.com/item/701446831 Good luck! | |||
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The Unmanned Writer |
I was thinking 30-06 with a 220 grain bullet. Plus if your buddy forgets ammo one trip, Wally World or other hunting stores will likely carry the round. Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. "If dogs don't go to Heaven, I want to go where they go" Will Rogers The definition of the words we used, carry a meaning of their own... | |||
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| I have not yet begun to procrastinate |
I would NEVER recommend against someone not getting a new gun but he could very well use the gun he's using now for elk with proper bullets. All copper (Barnes, Federal copper, Remington HTP) or Nosler partition just to name a few. It's very rare to have to take a 400 yd shot at game and 270s have been dropping elk for decades. -------- After the game, the King and the pawn go into the same box. | |||
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| The Constable |
I've killed more elk than probably the average guy. I used a .280 Rem and later when I rechambered ; a .280 AI 40° with 150 Nosler partitions. The vast majority one shot kills, NONE of them any drama, ALL died within a short distance. To 400 yds, PLACEMENT is far more relevant than mythical "knock down power". Few things help with that than a rifle that's accurate and comfortable to shoot. A .300 Mag, light weight is NOT comfy to shoot. Also...try to get him to some better bullets. Cheap assed Rem Core Lok's are not premiums. Todays premium slugs are so good, one can get by with 6.5's or a .270 for elk EASILY. I've killed a few cows with 120 NP's in a .257 Robert's. It's all about placement. | |||
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| The Constable |
Anyone too stupid to remember ammo on a hunting trip...shouldn't be hunting. I know...Airlines lose luggage, etc. And determining WHAT cartridge to use by what's readily available at Wal-Mart....Sorry that's just about as foolish. Never understood folks who limit themselves in such a way. | |||
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| Member |
220g for an elk? It would work but I've never bothered with more than a 180g for elk whennusing a 30-06. I'd use 200g on moose but when I'm loading 220s, it's because there are bears around. | |||
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Member |
Now that your ammo can be in the case with the gun, the whole "lost ammo" argument is moot. If your ammo is lost, so is your gun. Demand not that events should happen as you wish; but wish them to happen as they do happen, and you will go on well. -Epictetus | |||
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| Crusty old curmudgeon  |
A 180 gr. 308 will do the job nicely. When I hunted elk I shot 180 gr. handloads in 30-06. You can get close to the same ballistics in 308 that match the 30-06 loads. Shot placement is far more important than caliber in my opinion. Practice with the rifle and load you'll use at the distances you might see in the field is critical. Jim ________________________ "If you can't be a good example, then you'll have to be a horrible warning" -Catherine Aird | |||
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Age Quod Agis |
I am personally a fan of the Winchester 70. At his price point, he can have a beautifully appointed Win 70 in 300 mag or 338 mag that will do everything he wants out to 400 yards and look good doing it. Since he already owns a .270, I don't see the point of a .308 or .280. I like both rounds, and own a .308 as well, but I don't feel that they are enough different from the .270 to matter. The magnums, however are of a different species altogether. I don't have anything against the Brownings, I just like the fit and finish of the Winchester better. I also like the three position safety, and Mauser extractor. As you know, your Montana action is a cousin of the Mauser design used on the Winchester. The Ruger Hawkeye is also a good rifle to consider in that range. It too, is a traditional Mauser action. The Sako is a very nice rifle. The Tikka, in my opionion (and I own one) is the very best of the utility grade rifles. They are accurate and reliable, but unspectacular in fit, finish, feel and looks. Depending on how much he wants to commit to the scope as a percentage of purchase price, the Mauser Model 12 is in range, and they are stunning rifles. With a bit of shopping around, it appears he could also be in range of a Montana 1999 rifle for under $1500, leaving him $500+ for glass. My feeling is that if he is willing and able to commit $2k to the purchase, he should get a rifle that has some heirloom quality to it. The Winchesters, Rugers, Sakos, Mausers and Montanas have that in a way that the Tikka and Savage don't. The Browning is kind of in between as far as I am concerned. They are nicer than the Tikka and Savage, but I don't feel that they have the feel of the Winchester, Mauser and Sako, and they certainly are not in the class of the Mauser 12 or Montana. A Winchester 70 Super Grade lists at $1480. That probably puts street price at about $1100. The Sporter grade is $1050 which probably puts street at $800-850; maybe as low as $750 depending on demand. In the end, I like hunting rifles that speak to me. Unlike ARs, etc., I like my hunting rifles to have an elegance, grace and sense of ceremony about them. I think that is where my preference for classic designs, executed in nice wood and high polish blue comes from. Any of them will do the job. Only a select few will fill the aesthetic niche. Good luck to him. Finding a nice hunting rifle is a fun journey. "I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation." Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II. | |||
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| Member |
Im with you 100% about hunting rifles speaking to me while ARs and things like that do very little for me and I'm also in agreement about the heirloom quality you get from a Winchester 70. I'd have the guy look at a model 70 extreme weather in 30-06 if weight isn't a major concern. If weight is a concern, I'd stick with a kimber or a tikka. He could have any one of those 3 with great glass for under 2k. I like the Montana x2 as well, they are a nicely built gun, the only reason I do t have an x2 in 30-06 is because I couldndt find one while I was shopping for an 06 so I ended up with the m70ew. | |||
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Caribou gorn |
I have very little use for magnums, either standard, belted, or "short", "ultra" or any other kind. I just don't think they're necessary. That said, if I was going to have a magnum, it'd be a 7MM Rem Mag. If I am going to buy an "heirloom" quality deer rifle, it'd probably be in one of the big-name standard chamberings... .270, .30-06, 7mmRM. Something about a rufle that's going to be around a long time should be in a chambering that's equally as long-living. That's all personal, of course. Winchester Super or maybe a Cooper would be nice, though if you're toting around one of these rifles you might not want to beat that high grade walnut up. Maybe a Super Grade and a McMillan to drop it in when you want to. I'm gonna vote for the funniest frog with the loudest croak on the highest log. | |||
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