quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
I’m not sure about the bipod. It was packaged with Rifle. It appears to be a Harris 1A2-BRM, or at least very similar. Dumb question time: the build should be mounted so it folds forward, right? I get what you’re saying that the recoil can move the point of POA/POI, but by the point recoil happens the projectile is already on the way downrange.

I get the “loading” thing, but the rifle is so light I’d think the bipod will just slide forward without a ledge or something to hold it in place. I fire sure need to work on the consistency of body position. I know that varied a lot.

I should have looked at your rifle picture when enlarged -- yes, it does appear to be a Harris. It looks correctly mounted, as the feet fold forward. You can put a lot of forward pressure on a Harris, but doing so may cause it to slide forward. I see you are placing its feet on your ground cloth, which looks to be smooth and slick. I recommend placing the feet in the dirt, forward of the cloth. In both of my pictures above, the bipod feet are not on the ground cloth. In the upper pic, shooting a Harris from smooth concrete can be hard to do without bipod hop. In the lower pic, I dug my Atlas bipod feet into the dirt a bit, then was able to load the bipod without its being able to move forward with the loading.

Place your bipod's feet in the dirt forward of the cloth. Move the bipod around a bit to make divots in the dirt, then add a little forward pressure on the rifle. At first the rifle may just slide through the divots, but if you dirt is somewhat solid, the feet will dig in slightly with some resistance to moving further forward. That's what you want.

Understand that an Atlas bipod has some play in the legs -- essentially a fore-aft wobble. This makes the loading process easier, as the gun can move aft a bit during recoil without moving the feet's contact with the ground. A Harris bipod has almost no fore-aft play, and thus aft movement with the rifle translates to the same aft movement with the bipod. If the bipod feet move/jump/hop to the rear, the POI will likely change from the POA.

*****
The projectile is not yet out of the barrel when much of the recoil process occurs. This is why all the fundamentals of marksmanship are so important. To obtain accurate and repeatable shooting results, the rifle be rock solid for a relatively long time after the trigger has been pressed.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I should have looked at your rifle picture when enlarged -- yes, it does appear to be a Harris. It looks correctly mounted, as the feet fold forward. You can put a lot of forward pressure on a Harris, but doing so may cause it to slide forward. I see you are placing its feet on your ground cloth, which looks to be smooth and slick. I recommend placing the feet in the dirt, forward of the cloth. In both of my pictures above, the bipod feet are not on the ground cloth. In the upper pic, shooting a Harris from smooth concrete can be hard to do without bipod hop. In the lower pic, I dug my Atlas bipod feet into the dirt a bit, then was able to load the bipod without its being able to move forward with the loading.

Place your bipod's feet in the dirt forward of the cloth. Move the bipod around a bit to make divots in the dirt, then add a little forward pressure on the rifle. At first the rifle may just slide through the divots, but if you dirt is somewhat solid, the feet will dig in slightly with some resistance to moving further forward. That's what you want.

Understand that an Atlas bipod has some play in the legs -- essentially a fore-aft wobble. This makes the loading process easier, as the gun can move aft a bit during recoil without moving the feet's contact with the ground. A Harris bipod has almost no fore-aft play, and thus aft movement with the rifle translates to the same aft movement with the bipod. If the bipod feet move/jump/hop to the rear, the POI will likely change from the POA.

*****
The projectile is not yet out of the barrel when much of the recoil process occurs. This is why all the fundamentals of marksmanship are so important. To obtain accurate and repeatable shooting results, the rifle be rock solid for a relatively long time after the trigger has been pressed.

I'll work on this, thanks. As well as body positioning. I appreciate all the feedback!

As usual we are fortunate to get good advice from fritz who has helped me with my own precision rifle shooting.

But about shooting from a firm rest that eliminates the human factor as much as possible, it’s not only about achieving tiny groups we can hang on the refrigerator to admire later. Although that may be satisfying, a more practical reason is to ensure we know what precision the rifle and ammunition are capable of when we’re shooting under less than ideal conditions.

Pictured are three groups I fired today with my Ruger 10-22 and CCI Standard Velocity ammunition.

The groups were fired at 50 yards from a bench rest. The scope on the rifle is a Leupold 2-7× and that has a traditional Duplex reticle. A magnification of 7× isn’t any too much for 50 yards, but the diamond shape targets allow pretty good confidence that my points of aim for the series were consistent. The front rest was a couple of soft bags that I squashed down pretty firmly, and again I didn’t feel that that affected my shooting consistency.





Based on crude measurements, the three 10-shot groups ran about 1.4 - 1.5 inches center to center, and what does that tell me? It’s not about being able to brag about what a fantastic rifle I have, but what I should expect from it. These days I’ve been trying to improve my marksmanship kneeling or standing using a single tripod for support by shooting dot drills at 50 yards. If, however, I were using the 10-22 and CC Standard Velocity ammunition to shoot at 1 inch diameter dots and I missed a shot, I wouldn’t know for certain if the fault was mine as the unskilled shooter, or the limits of the rifle and ammunition being used.

I have rifles and ammo capable of hitting 3/4" dots at 50 yards with boring regularity, and if I miss a dot with that combination then I know it’s my fault, and not the rifle’s. On the other hand if I’m trying to hit a 0.75" dot with a gun only capable of 1.5" groups, then I can’t know. The ability to call my shots by where the reticle was pointed when I fired helps, but not as much. I still might fire dot drills with the 10-22, but I’d use targets sized appropriately for its level of possible precision. The rifle might be capable of better precision with an aftermarket trigger, more powerful scope, and better ammunition, but that’s not what I used.

All that may seem obvious when we think about it, but I believe it may emphasize why we want to know how precise are the groups we can get with our rifle and ammunition before we start blaming everything on our own lack of skill.

Anyway, I’ll second the advice to push yourself to be able to shoot well from different positions and not just rely on methods that take most of the human factors out of the equation. Not only is that much more likely to be of practical use if we ever need the skills for something besides punching holes in paper, I find the challenge to be a lot of fun and far more satisfying when I do well.

As another aside, yes, the recoil starts as soon as the projectile starts moving. It’s not much with the 22 LR cartridge, but I believe that one of the reasons why 22 LR rifles can be challenging to shoot is because of the longer time the bullet remains in the barrel as compared with most centerfire cartridges.

It would be interesting to see what the rifle is capable of, at some point... I just think it is clear that, at this time, the limiting factor is me and not the platform. I imagine that with regular practice the moment will come where I am confused at groups and their size given where I knew I was aimed when the shot breaks. However, I'm not there yet.

I just ordered another thousand rounds of the CCI Standard... I've still got a couple thousand on the shelf but it might take a while before I start feeling more comfortable. Perhaps it would be good to bring the target closer to maybe 25 yards for a while to make the aiming portion of it easier?

I do think I found a way to fund a new scope... probably in the $700 ballpark... I'll need to look at options there, as well as mounting options, but we can save that for a different post.

I haven’t gotten behind a rifle since my last posting about it here… but I did get a new scope around Christmas and just took it out for zeroing.

All shooting is at 25 yards, prone with bipod, using CCI SV. Red outlined groups are the main part of the zeroing process, point of aim was the top left target shape. Once I got pretty close I then continued shooting five rounds at each new target, making smaller adjusts for a while. Then it was just some practice.



Second page…targets 1-4 continues with the 5 round groups. Starting at the center target, ZERO, I began 10 round groups and those continued for 5-8. By targets 7-8 I could tell I was loosing trigger discipline and focus so I called it done for the day, 150 rounds shot total.




Thoughts? Pretty happy overall.

Coming from a dilettante to this, I'm impressed by the great progress you've made. I will only comment that your bottom groups are off a little to the left, either from wind or from lack of adjustment, perhaps. But they are very tight and very consistent. A major improvement IMO, we'll see what our SF experts have to say.
Yeah, I'd be happy with that.

By the way: I modified one of my Ruger 10/22's for an Appleseed class: put in a Kidd barrel and bolt, and a Timney (IIRC) trigger, which I liked better than the Ruger drop-in.
I couldn't get 1/2 MOA with the Kidd, but I could consistently shoot 1 MOA at 50 yards (i.e. 1/2 inch). So it's not necessary to buy a new rifle, upgrading your basic 10/22 can make a big difference.

The size of the images make it hard for me to see exactly how you’re doing, but it seems that your practice is paying off even with a break, and that’s the point of practice.

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:
Coming from a dilettante to this, I'm impressed by the great progress you've made. I will only comment that your bottom groups are off a little to the left, either from wind or from lack of adjustment, perhaps. But they are very tight and very consistent. A major improvement IMO, we'll see what our SF experts have to say.
Yeah, I'd be happy with that.

By the way: I modified one of my Ruger 10/22's for an Appleseed class: put in a Kidd barrel and bolt, and a Timney (IIRC) trigger, which I liked better than the Ruger drop-in.
I couldn't get 1/2 MOA with the Kidd, but I could consistently shoot 1 MOA at 50 yards (i.e. 1/2 inch). So it's not necessary to buy a new rifle, upgrading your basic 10/22 can make a big difference.

Thanks Doc! I noticed the consistent “down-left” theme going on too. I suspect it’s induced trigger slap on my part. I’m having trouble getting used to the “wobble” in the scope as I breathe. On an occasion or two I really drilled down and focused and the trigger and the round went right in the red… so I’m pretty sure that down left is me. I hope to confirm that on the next practice season.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
The size of the images make it hard for me to see exactly how you’re doing, but it seems that your practice is paying off even with a break, and that’s the point of practice.

If you click on them it’ll open a bigger image.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
If you click on them it’ll open a bigger image.

Dang! Jus' like that.

Chasing precision with 22’s can be a very deep and complex discussion, and mounds of info is out there. My suggestion would be to go to an NRL 22 match ( a good number are in California so there should be one a reasonable distance from you) this is what I shoot, and just asking questions and observing will give you so much info to be almost overwhelming at first.
I came over from conventional iron sight service rifle competition and knew nothing about optics. It was a steep learning curve.
I have a couple rifles I use:
I currently use a Kidd 10/22, but started with a humble savage MKII
Bear in mind most shooters expect to pay at least if not more for optics than the rifle itself.
Target type scopes with the appropriate features can be had in the budget category from Arken athlon and vortex. (300-700 range)
A lot of my fellow shooters use modified 10/22’s and they can do the job, but some guys have nearly 10 grand in a top tier scope and bolt action! I for one am not willing to go to those extremes.

Targets are looking better. But I also see that targets on page 3 were shot at 50 yards, where the ones shot on page 4 were at 25 yards. The decreased distance should automatically reduce impact dispersion by 50%.

First page -- yellow, red, and blue targets.
- Nice work with the 1st row middle, 2nd row right, 3rd row left & middle.
- The other targets show some inconsistencies -- maybe slightly more up/down than left/right.

Second page -- red & white targets.
- Your best targets are 4, zero, and 7.
- All targets are decent for 10 rounds, but inconsistencies arise. As noted by others, there's a tendency for left impacts.
- As you can see, it's harder to keep 10 rounds than 5 rounds in a tight group.

My recommendations going forward:
- If you're going to shoot at 25 yards, 5 rounds per target will provide much better feedback than 10 rounds.

- Dot drills are a pain in the ass, but they provide immediate feedback for every shot. One shot per target, at a target no larger than 1 MOA. For 25 yards, this means 1/4" targets. One cheap option is using a wide-ish tip black magic marker on white paper. One shot per marked dot, and you can place as many or as few dots as you want on a piece of paper. Expect to be both humbled and frustrated by dot drills.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:It won't be until early July that I can make another trip to the rifle range

Y'see, this is something I can't get my old head around. I live in UK, where there are, as you know, some strange ideas about shooting in general. But I can go to my range any day of the week - evenings too in the summer, and shoot to my heart's content - I actually go three rimes a week, though.

quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley:
Y'see, this is something I can't get my old head around. I live in UK, where there are, as you know, some strange ideas about shooting in general. But I can go to my range any day of the week - evenings too in the summer, and shoot to my heart's content - I actually go three rimes a week, though.

More about stage of life for me… young family and long work hours during the week. Don’t have much time recreation, but I’m trying to carve out more.

Today I had to run out to my sister’s property and managed to throw a target up at 50 yards… after getting the scope adjusted for the new distance I had time to shoot 4 10-round groups at 50 yards. See below (click for bigger).



It seems there is still some adjusting in the scope to be done, but some good and some bad. Some of the worst flyers were 100% oops moments, the kind where you know you messed it up even as the shot breaks. Doh.

But some consistency that is ok too. It felt a little disheartening as I was doing the shooting, but after checking the targets again this evening it’s not as bad as I felt like it was.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

My recommendations going forward:
- If you're going to shoot at 25 yards, 5 rounds per target will provide much better feedback than 10 rounds.

Do you have an opinion on if I should be practicing at 25 or 50 for now? Let’s say my ultimate long-term goal is to be able to reliably engage a 3” target at 200 yards with this rifle, where is my time better spent at this stage? 5 round groups at 25? 10 round groups at 50? 1 moa dot drills at 25? At 50?

From the 10-shot group thread last year....something to consider on shot dispersion. The biggest challenge I had was a variable breezes from the right. Lateral wind drift varied between .5 to 1.5 bullet-hole-width over the course of shooting this target. That's the primary reason the upper dot drill targets don't exactly match the lower group targets. Kimber Sporter at 50 yards, prone with bipod, Wolf Match Extra.
****

Maybe 4-5 years ago, I wanted to compare & contrast shooting for groups vs. dot drills. I was warmed up, knew the concepts of what I wanted to show, shot at 50 yards with a Kimber 22lr bolt action. I tried to show similar shooting fundamental errors -- dot drills on top, groups below.



#1 -- Often what occurs when the shooter doesn't get behind the rifle consistently. Could be having your eye not centered in the scope. Or inconsistent cheek weld.

#2 -- Lateral dispersion. Often from inconsistent trigger press, which can occur from not contacting the trigger with the same part of the finger each time.

#3 -- Vertical dispersion. Often from breathing issues. Also could be issues with rear bag or cheek weld.

#4 -- Rounds falling all over the place. Most likely the gun and ammo are pretty accurate, and the optics are sighted in properly. This is where the shooter needs schooling on all the fundamentals.

******

I was teaching a couple of relatively new shooters around the time of this target. One asked how I was able to switch between types of errors on one target page. I replied that I could have center punched each target if I wanted to. Instead, I aimed for specific types of misses, to better illustrate the effects of various techniques. His dad just smiled.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
Do you have an opinion on if I should be practicing at 25 or 50 for now? Let’s say my ultimate long-term goal is to be able to reliably engage a 3” target at 200 yards with this rifle, where is my time better spent at this stage? 5 round groups at 25? 10 round groups at 50? 1 moa dot drills at 25? At 50?

Practice and drills can be done at any distance. Since you intend to shoot at really long distances for a 22.r, more experience at longer distances is helpful. Learning wind drift and dealing with substantial bullet drop takes time.

Dot drills offer brutally honest feedback for each shot. IMO 10 one-dot drills are much more telling than 1 ten-shot target.

I don't feel that your 10/22 with CCI SV ammo will be able to consistently hit a 3" target at 200 yards. Especially if you're shooting outside, with any kind of wind. I've shot 22lr matches at 200-225 yards, steel plates of 6-8 inches -- and had a damn hard time getting consistent hits, with breezes weren't all that bad. All this from a Kimber bolt action that can consistently drill 1/4" to 3/8" 5-round groups at 50 yards, and 1/2" to 3/4" 5-round groups at 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I don't feel that your 10/22 with CCI SV ammo will be able to consistently hit a 3" target at 200 yards.

Even without any significant personal experience with 22LR shooting at 200 yards, I agree.

I know of one YouTuber who regularly shoots 22 Long Rifle ammunition at 200 yards with higher quality rifles and ammunition. He usually feels pretty good if he can keep all shots within 4 inches (~2 MOA) at that distance, and usually even without dealing with exceptionally difficult conditions. Watching his videos helps me keep my expectations reasonable.

https://www.youtube.com/@BROTUNED

Thanks for all the good info. I’m going to work up some targets for dot drills and will take them out next time.

I’m happy enough to upgrade my ammo when the time comes, I just have the sense that the CCI SV is probably currently more capable of consistency than I am? I figured I’d keep practicing with that until it seems like time to step up to a better grade of ammo. If I’m wrong about that, please correct me.

And in the end if the gun isn’t capable, that’s just fine too. I know that particular question isn’t able to be answered by me at this time… if the day comes where I have progressed and the gun itself seems the limiting factor I can explore the options available on the hardware front. I’m happy to “ride this horse” as far as it’ll get me.

Understand that a 10/22 is not a precision rifle. A fun plinking rifle that's reliable with the right magazines and ammo -- absolutely. Things that keep a 10/22 from being a true precision rifle:
- Semi-auto. In order to reliably cycle many types of ammo, the chamber tolerances are opened up. The gun can thus cycle with lots of ammo types, when the chamber is pretty dirty, but at the cost of precision. There's also more vibration occurring in the cartridge ignition process with a semi-auto than a bolt action. Vibration throughout the firearm is a detriment to accuracy.
- The chamber length is longer than that of a precision bolt action, to accept the longer cases that are often used in plinking ammo. Such as CCI Mini Mag. This reduces chances of jamming with Mini Mag ammo, but at of cost of precision with quality match ammo. Match ammo will likely not have the case solidly locked in the chamber, the bullet may have a longer jump to the lands than is optimal, and the bullet may wobble a little bit in the throat before it engages the lands.
- Due to chamber design, true match ammo may not produce noticeably better accuracy than middle-of-the-road ammo in a 10/22. In contrast to a quality bolt action, where match ammo's accuracy should be obvious.
- A stock 10/22 doesn't have the best barrel.

This doesn't mean you can't shoot at 200+ yard targets, but rather that you should consider larger targets and/or lower hit percentages. Work your way out to longer distances in stages. Learn the drops, develop dope tables, understand wind drift, learn to estimate crosswind speeds.

Let's talk ballistics at 200 yards. From JBM -- 40 grain solid lead, 1050 fps MV, 2000' density altitude, zero at 50 yards, sights 1.5" over bore.

At 200 yards, the bullet drops 55.5 inches, which is 26.5 MOA. A 10 mph crosswind pushes the bullet 14.8 inches laterally, which is 7.1 MOA. This means for every 1 mph of crosswind between the shooter and the target, the bullet deflects 1.5 inches. Assuming perfect flight of the bullet, hitting a 3" wide target requires estimating wind speed within 2 mph.

A primary reason for match 22lr ammo's high cost is the cost controls to ensure consistent muzzle velocity. If the dope tables are based on 1050 fps, a round with MV of 1030 now has a drop of 57.2 inches at 200 yards. Aim at the center of the 3" target, and now the slower round just missed the bottom of the target.

If a given round produces an MV of 1070 fps, the bullet drops 53.9 inches -- and now the bullet flies over the top of the 3" target.

A big challenge with such common MV variations in 22lr ammo is trying to decide if that last high or low impact was caused by the ammo, or by the shooter. This is where a shooter's fundamentals come into play. IMO to shoot effectively at 200 yards, the shooter must be able to consistently lay rounds in the same hole at 50 yards. And the shooter must also be able to predict where the bullet will likely impact when there's a lapse in the fundamentals.

Long distance shooting can be a fun game. It's always challenging. Sometimes it's frustrating.