For years I've had a 10/22 (#31172, the "target tactical?) in the safe with what I think is a very entry level Bushnell Banner scope on it but never used it very much... The other day I took it out to some property where the max safe distance I have is about 50 yards. The scope is only generally sighted in (frankly I'm not sure proper procedures on that) but I was able to hit the 500ml water bottles without difficulty by holding the reticle just a bit below desired POI.

So my question is this... what kind of accuracy, and at what distances, are reasonable expectations for this set-up?

There are other places I can shoot that can go out to at least 200 yards, perhaps longer. Is that in the realm for this gun, or not so much?

My other scoped rifle is an AR build of some variant. I don't remember much about it, as I don't think I've ever shot it since assembling besides function check. I believe it has some sort of 20" fluted barrel, but I can't remember the brand. The trigger is Geissele, as is the forend and scope mount (SHOT Show winnings in their little ticket booth), and the scope is a Mark6... something like 1.5-5x... something like that. I honestly don't remember.

My thought was to spend time behind the Ruger for a while learning the basics.... But I don't know what those basics are.

Very interested in the thoughts ya'll might have for me.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thumperfbc,

My old Marlin 60, with many thousands of hard use & rapid fire rounds through it can reliably hit a steel silhouette at 100yds, with cheap bulk ammo & factory iron sights. I'd expect better than that from yours with a scope.
With some quality target ammo, I'd think you should be good to at least 100 for minute of waterbottle

Somewhere I heard that CCI Standard Velocity is a good choice for the 10/22 for everyday shooting... Not as good as a real match ammo but still pretty accurate, cheap, and plentiful. I do have a couple thousand rounds of it in dusty boxes stacked up... plus a 30 cal can of loose Golden Bullets I bought back those were super super cheap and plentiful.

An off the shelf scoped 10/22, I’d keep things reasonable. With it I would stay at 50 yards or less. I’d be working on practice mostly.

I didn’t see your scope type, you mention the lower power scope on the AR.

Just taking scope differences, one uses an average 3-9 pwr scope, the next a better quality 6-18 power, with fine crosshairs. It’s easier to shoot better groups with quality glass. After that you have ammo differences, triggers, a rest, and shooter experience.

Thanks for the reply!

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
An off the shelf scoped 10/22, I’d keep things reasonable. With it I would stay at 50 yards or less. I’d be working on practice mostly.

And by practice is there something specific you have in mind other than the obvious "shoot stuff.... with care"? I spent a goodly amount of my time fidgeting (was proned out) and trying to find the most comfortable position behind the scope. Perhaps (probably?) this is the nature of the scope (or all scopes, I suppose) but there seemed to be a very small "window" of positioning to resulted in good vision through the lens. Consistency, I think, in getting behind the gun is probably a big early hurdle.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
I didn’t see your scope type, you mention the lower power scope on the AR.

On the Ruger is this, I think:
Busnell Banner

On the AR of indeterminate quality is this:
Leupold Mk4

Until recently I had what I think was a very nice Leupold Mk6 on a Tikka 308, but I had never shot it and sold it to help fund some kitchen updates. While I think it was a nice setup, I'd literally not shot in in the 8 years I've had it, and I don't think there was anything "special" about it, so it can be replaced later, once I know what I'm doing.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
Just taking scope differences, one uses an average 3-9 pwr scope, the next a better quality 6-18 power, with fine crosshairs. It’s easier to shoot better groups with quality glass. After that you have ammo differences, triggers, a rest, and shooter experience.

My trigger control is starting from a good place... I'm a pistol and shotgun instructor with my agency and I can shoot one hole groups with a full mag at 5 yards all day long using most common cop-type pistols, farther even on better than average days. So trigger control is starting in a good place. It is just the REST of the equation where I am a complete, no-nothing new guy.

I remembered that the barrel on the AR is a 20" heavy fluted Faxon barrel, for whatever that is worth.

A ruger 10/22 is a fair starting point when thinking of pursuing 22LR accuracy. There is a lot of variability in accuracy and reliability. Some 10/22’s can be tack drivers others not so much, and if you want to go crazy there are countless aftermarket parts from chassis stocks, heavy match barrels internals etc to choose from.

I run a Kidd 10 /22 ( full Kidd build - which with optics and all cost about what 10 box stock 10/22’s would run) but it is perfectly reliable and amazingly accurate. At 50 yards, 1/2 and less groups are routine, and have effectively shot it out past 300 yards.
If selling precision ammo plays a huge role. CCI standard velocity is a good starting point but to maximize accuracy you really need European made match ammo. Don’t Waste your time or money on anything made in the US especially high velocity bulk garbage.
At 50 yards, with a little tuning up and maybe $150 bucks in a better trigger and barrel, a 10/22 should easily be a sub one inch group gun

“What is a reasonable expectation?”

Your question piqued my interest and prompted me to pull out my own 10/22 and test a few loads. My rifle was a distributor’s offering with an “international” (full length) stock and stainless steel barrel that was shipped in 1994. Otherwise there’s no apparent difference between it and others of the era. The scope is a Leupold 2-7× “Rimfire.”

I shot 10-shot groups of three types of 22 Long Rifle ammunition at 50 yards from a sturdy bench rest and soft bags for support. The scope magnification was set to 7 power for all shots and I made some elevation and windage adjustments between groups.

Below are the last four groups I fired. I’m not posting the first three because things settled down significantly after they were fired and the first groups would be misleading. I had cleaned the barrel of the rifle before the session and it’s conventional wisdom that 22 LR rifles need to have their barrels “seasoned” with multiple shots before they can perform the best.

The left and center groups of the first target were fired with the GECO “Rifle” load. That load along with others of the same brand are evidently no longer (readily) available in the U.S., and when it was it was offered at nonpremium prices. Supposedly it is made by RWS and has a soft waxy lube as is common on higher tier types. The last and best group ran somewhat over 2 minutes of angle.

The right group of the first target was fired with Federal “Auto Match.” The AM is a bulk load dumped loosely in its box. As is obvious from the pictured group (and the other wasn’t much better), the load is hardly “match” quality. I have seen several other YouTube tests of the load, and no one seems to have good luck with it, even from top tier rifles. Whether it’s any better than any other bulk loads I don’t know, but it’s about what I would expect from something that costs about 7¢ plus tax and shipping per round.

The lower target shows the group fired with the CCI “Standard Velocity” load. According to comments on the Internet, this load enjoys a good following among shooters who want something better than the bulk stuff, but don’t want to pay 18-40¢ per round. Although I haven’t fired much of the load in recent times, this group gives me the impression that most shots perform pretty well, but with frequent outliers.








As even this limited test demonstrates, ammunition quality makes a major difference in what level of precision and accuracy we can expect from a gun like a stock 10/22—but also from any halfway decent rifle. Nevertheless, even with the two most precise loads I fired today, they still ran well over 2 MOA at 50 yards.* But does they’ll group within 4 to 5 inches at 200 yards? Not necessarily.

BROTUNED is a YouTube channel with many tests and demonstrations of shooting 22 Long Rifle ammunition at various distances. The shooter has a high quality Bergara rifle that he sometimes uses with a higher tier aftermarket barrel. He frequently shoots groups at 200 yards with some of the best 22 LR ammunition available.
But. He seldom achieves even 2 inch (~1 MOA) groups.

Could I regularly hit a 5-gallon bucket at 200 yards with my 10/22 setup and using the proper holdoff point of aim to compensate for the drop? Probably.
Could I hit a 500ml water bottle at 200 yards? Probably. Once in a while. By good luck.

And what about your scope? Mine has a max magnification of 7× which was plenty for the targets I was using at 50 yards. As one optics authority has pointed out, what ultimately matters with a scope sight is whether we can see the target. To see a cryptic 1-MOA steel plate in the shadows at 900 yards while looking through mist or the smoke from the next state’s wildfires requires a good scope. But to do that with a 500ml bottle at 50 yards or a 5-gallon bucket at 200? Not so much.

* With my Winchester 52E target rifle and Lapua Center-X ammunition ($0.40/shot) I can pretty regularly hit a 1/2 inch (and smaller) circle dot, but I obviously couldn’t expect that with my 10/22.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
CCI standard velocity is a good starting point but to maximize accuracy you really need European made match ammo. Don’t Waste your time or money on anything made in the US especially high velocity bulk garbage.

At this point I'm not going to make any modifications to the rifle... would prefer to shoot it as is and build my own skills. There will be time down the road for better hardware, I think.

Do you have a specific recommendations on good Euro match ammo?

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
“What is a reasonable expectation?”

Thanks for this post! I appreciate the time and effort that went into it.

A couple things are clear to me:

1) I don't know what Minute of Angle/MOA actually means...
2) I likely need some sort of resting system to really achieve good results? I would really like to see what groups I can get, but I'm guess that proned out using just the bipod isn't the most precise way to go?

Or is it? There is no shooting table available where I go... just an empty retaining pond where I can lay at the top and shoot into it from above, about 50 yards. Maybe the bipod is the best way to start and build skills? Or should I be looking for some sort of sand bags?

Magnification on the Bushnell is 3-9.... but at $100 retail, it can't be great quality glass.

Where should the scope be zero'd at? 50 yards, since that is what I have access to? 25? Frankly I need to watch a video on how to zero a rifle scope. Like I said, I'm new to this. I can squeeze 5 rounds into a nickel sized hole with my P320 at 5 yards standing unsupported, but I'm brand new to this kind of shooting.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thumperfbc,

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
1) I don't know what Minute of Angle/MOA actually means...

A easy one...the other questions may take longer.
MOA is an angular measurement. It is 1/60 of a degree.

The actual measurement downrange is 1.047" at 100 yards. In ballpark terms, think of this as 1 inch at 100 yards, 2 inches at 200 yards, 5 inches at 500 yards, 1/2 inch at 50 yards, and so on. 1 MOA is kinda-sorta a standard of good rifle accuracy.

The best way to understand minutes of angle is to search on YouTube for “moa explained shooting,” (or something similar) and you’ll get many useful results. In short, though, as there are 360 degrees in a circle, there are 60 minutes in a degree, and that angular measurement is commonly used to talk about the precision of shot groups. The farther from the source of a measurement (the shooting position), the more an MOA subtends.

Coincidently, 1 MOA measures about 1 inch at 100 yards (not exactly, but close enough). Because 50 yards is half the distance to 100 yards, 1 MOA at 50 yards covers about 0.5 inch. Likewise when the distance is increased, a minute of angle covers more and more. At 200 yards an MOA subtends about 2 inches, at 300 yards, 3 inches, and so on. And if my group at 50 yards measures 1.2 inches across the outside hits, at 100 yards it would be (about) 2.4 inches, and at 200 yards about 4.8 inches.

There are also many videos about zeroing a sight. Again, in short, if your shots all hit below the point of aim at your desired zeroing distance, you have to adjust the elevation of your sight up; if they hit right, the windage adjustment is used to move them left.

Shooting from the prone with a bipod can be very precise, but it’s also good to have support at the rear of the stock like a bag of some sort. Any of the many videos showing shooters will usually show how they support the gun, and BROTUNED is one.

Zeroing distance is always subject to many differing opinions. My 22 LR rifles are zeroed at 50 yards because that’s the distance at which I shoot many drills. Again, though, that’s something else people talk about in videos. Because your scope probably isn’t really designed to be continually adjusting the elevation for different target distances, you’ll have to experiment with how to adjust your aim. At 100 yards, for example, with a 50 yard zero and one type of ammo I shoot, I’d have to aim about 7 inches high (where I live); at 200 yards I’d have to aim about 48 inches (4 feet!) above the target.

A better scope would make all that easier, but in your situation I’d start with what you have, try to find some CCI Standard Velocity ammo, and just get shooting at 50 yards. It would be best if you were able to get zeroed at that distance as well, but it’s not absolutely necessary if you’re just trying for precise groups someplace on the target paper.

Your skill at controlling a pistol will be a big help with shooting a rifle (trigger control and all), but the ’net also has videos and other guidance on how to shoot well from the prone.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
1) I don't know what Minute of Angle/MOA actually means...

A easy one...the other questions may take longer.
MOA is an angular measurement. It is 1/60 of a degree.

The actual measurement downrange is 1.047" at 100 yards. In ballpark terms, think of this as 1 inch at 100 yards, 2 inches at 200 yards, 5 inches at 500 yards, 1/2 inch at 50 yards, and so on. 1 MOA is kinda-sorta a standard of good rifle accuracy.

So, if I can turn out 1/2" groups at 50 yards with my 10/22, that would generally be considered "reasonably accurate", as it equals MOA. Good to know and good to have a goal.

I'm going to have to try this soon.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

... good stuff ...

A better scope would make all that easier, but in your situation I’d start with what you have, try to find some CCI Standard Velocity ammo, and just get shooting at 50 yards. It would be best if you were able to get zeroed at that distance as well, but it’s not absolutely necessary if you’re just trying for precise groups someplace on the target paper.

Thanks again, this helps. I have a healthy supply of CCI Standard Velocity on hand as I was told it was a prudent choice for my rifle when I bought it.... I've bought a little here and there and by now have at least a couple thousand on the shelf. Good enough to get started.

I found some MOA targets with 1/2" markings on it, so that seems like a good choice.

I understand the MOA now, thanks to you and Fritz. It makes me all the more impressed that some people (and some rifles) can hit a target at extreme ranges... for instance, a military sniper hitting a target at 1000+ yards really says a lot about both his skill as well as the quality of the firearm, it seems. It has to be shooting significantly better than MOA in order to do that, it would seem. Impressive.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
So, if I can turn out 1/2" groups at 50 yards with my 10/22, that would generally be considered "reasonably accurate" ....

Not to limit your goals, but with your rifle and ammunition, 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards would be exceptionally accurate based on what I know about the subject, including my own experiences.

As pictured above, with a rifle and ammunition like yours, my 10-shot group at 50 yards was somewhat over an inch. Unless your rifle capable of significantly better precision than mine (possible, but not too likely), I would be well satisfied with 1 inch groups.

Something else to be aware of about the topic is that small groups consisting of a few shots are far more common than similar small groups with many shots. Five shots is sort of a minimum standard, but at least 10 give a much better indication of the capabilities of gun, ammo, and shooter. Three-shot groups that we see on occasion are all but laughable if offered to demonstrate anything meaningful.

In any event, all the best with your endeavor. Being an accomplished shooter in a couple of disciplines no doubt already gives you a lot of satisfaction, and I predict that branching out to another will be another enjoyable experience (including dealing with its frustrations ). I can honestly say that trying to master precision rifle shooting is what I enjoy most among all of my shooting activities.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
... more good stuff ...

Ok great, thank you! At this point my goal is "reasonable".

It won't be until early July that I can make another trip to the rifle range, but I am eager to try it. That gives me time to sort out a rear bag/support, as that seems to be the immediate need that I have.

IF one DID want to upgrade to something better than the Bushnell Banner 3-9, what is the next logical step? More than likely a Leupold as I seem to have access to really solid discounts of MSRP.

Another question:

What does each click on a rifle scope adjust equal? Is it standardized to some fraction of MOA, or does it vary by manufacturer and intended use of scope?

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
What does each click on a rifle scope adjust equal? Is it standardized to some fraction of MOA, or does it vary by manufacturer and intended use of scope?

That depends on the scope.
Most commonly with lower line scopes for the American hunting market, the adjustments are calibrated in minutes of angle, and usually one click (if it has “clicks”) equals 1/4 MOA, or about 1/8 inch at 50 yards, 0.25 inch at 100 yards (1/2 inch at 200, …). I.e., if you’re shooting at 100 yards and are hitting 2 inches low, you’d adjust up eight clicks if they are 1/4 MOA clicks.

The Bushnell Banner scope you linked has MOA adjustments, and probably 1/4 MOA per click. It should actually be marked on the scope adjustments someplace. But be aware that there are exceptions to the 1/4 MOA per click adjustment rule: some scopes differ from that and it’s obviously important to know by checking the scope or manufacturer’s specs.

Most (but not all) higher end scopes suitable for “tactical” or precision competition use are calibrated in milliradians, with one click equaling 0.1 mil that translates to 0.36 inch at 100 yards. (Don’t worry about mils yet. )

Leupold makes a good line of scopes, but one thing to be aware of when selecting a scope for a .22 rimfire rifle is how closely they will focus because you may want to shoot at distances closer than 50 yards. The main reason I chose the scopes for my precision 22 LRs was that they focus as closely as 10 yards. I would want one to allow shooting at least as close as 25 yards with a rimfire rifle.

Many “rimfire” scopes have fixed focus distances and we’re stuck with whatever they permit. On the other hand, if they have fixed focus, the close clear focus distance is usually dependent upon the magnification setting used. For example, with my 2-7× Leupolds, at 2× I can see acceptably clearly as close as about 8 yards, while everything is blurry at 7×.

It’s a complex subject and again videos and reviews are useful, including those dedicated to airgun shooting.
If you find something that you are interested in, I recommend mentioning it here so that the more experienced shooters can offer their comments.

To emphasize, though, you can start out with what you have. Even if you had the inclination (not to mention money) to buy a Desert Precision Rim-X rifle, Nightforce 7-35 scope, and a couple of cases of lot-tested Lapua X-Act ammunition, it probably wouldn’t be a good idea to start that way. My earliest shooting skills were developed with a spring-piston air rifle, iron sights, and whatever pellets were cheapest to be had. I was nevertheless a terror to the nuisance snails in our yard in France.

Added: I just looked up your model 10/22, and it offers advantages over mine, so I would say “Good choice.” And although I’m certainly not suggesting it at this point, one big advantage to the 10/22 is that there are many good premium aftermarket barrels available for the guns to improve inherent precision. For example, some years ago I upgraded my Ruger 77/22 with a Lilja barrel and that was a huge benefit for the type of shooting I do with it.

OK great. So my plan, once I have a rear bag of some sort, is to measure out 50 yards, which is pretty much what I was already shooting at the other day, and hang my MOA marked target. As I was able to hit the water bottles I should already be on paper. As I recall the windage was on, but I was having to aim low to make the hits. Should be some quick adjustments to get it closer and then I can start working on technique.

Thanks! It'll be 2 weeks or so but I'll get some sample targets posted.

Great!
Sounds good, and Looking forward to your future reports.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
For years I've had a 10/22 (#31172, the "target tactical?) in the safe with what I think is a very entry level Bushnell Banner scope on it but never used it very much... The other day I took it out to some property where the max safe distance I have is about 50 yards. The scope is only generally sighted in (frankly I'm not sure proper procedures on that) but I was able to hit the 500ml water bottles without difficulty by holding the reticle just a bit below desired POI.

So my question is this... what kind of accuracy, and at what distances, are reasonable expectations for this set-up?

There are other places I can shoot that can go out to at least 200 yards, perhaps longer. Is that in the realm for this gun, or not so much?

My other scoped rifle is an AR build of some variant. I don't remember much about it, as I don't think I've ever shot it since assembling besides function check. I believe it has some sort of 20" fluted barrel, but I can't remember the brand. The trigger is Geissele, as is the forend and scope mount (SHOT Show winnings in their little ticket booth), and the scope is a Mark6... something like 1.5-5x... something like that. I honestly don't remember.

My thought was to spend time behind the Ruger for a while learning the basics.... But I don't know what those basics are.

Very interested in the thoughts ya'll might have for me.

The /best/ recommendation I can give you is to take a Project Appleseed clinic:

https://appleseedinfo.org

This should give you practical accuracy out to 200m with some practice and very basic gear (USGI web sling).

I'm a believer and will gladly cover your ticket if you email me.