quote:

Originally posted by Legal Beagle:

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
For years I've had a 10/22 (#31172, the "target tactical?) in the safe with what I think is a very entry level Bushnell Banner scope on it but never used it very much... The other day I took it out to some property where the max safe distance I have is about 50 yards. The scope is only generally sighted in (frankly I'm not sure proper procedures on that) but I was able to hit the 500ml water bottles without difficulty by holding the reticle just a bit below desired POI.

So my question is this... what kind of accuracy, and at what distances, are reasonable expectations for this set-up?

There are other places I can shoot that can go out to at least 200 yards, perhaps longer. Is that in the realm for this gun, or not so much?

My other scoped rifle is an AR build of some variant. I don't remember much about it, as I don't think I've ever shot it since assembling besides function check. I believe it has some sort of 20" fluted barrel, but I can't remember the brand. The trigger is Geissele, as is the forend and scope mount (SHOT Show winnings in their little ticket booth), and the scope is a Mark6... something like 1.5-5x... something like that. I honestly don't remember.

My thought was to spend time behind the Ruger for a while learning the basics.... But I don't know what those basics are.

Very interested in the thoughts ya'll might have for me.

The /best/ recommendation I can give you is to take a Project Appleseed clinic:

https://appleseedinfo.org

This should give you practical accuracy out to 200m with some practice and very basic gear (USGI web sling).

I'm a believer and will gladly cover your ticket if you email me.

You’re referring to the traditional 25m event? I see a couple coming up a few hours from my location. Looks interesting for sure! I’m going to look into it more. Thanks for the tip!

Project Appleseed is great, and a 10/22 with or without scope is what they recommend. I had not shot prone before Appleseed, and my rifle did not give me a good cheek rest while prone. I would practice with that prior to the Appleseed event. As one of the older/est shooters with stiff neck, bad back, and old eyes, I found it physically uncomfortable. Nonetheless I plan to go back because I don’t yet have my patch.

I finally was able to get get some access again and some free time without the kiddos and did some shooting at 50 yards today. I measured the distance with a long tape, it is accurate. In relation to where the shooting position was the target had a drop in elevation of about 8 feet. I shot from a prone position using bipod in the front of each rifle. In the back I used a 30 cal ammo can with a fist sized shooting bag I got from Amazon… I struggled some with consistency of hold/cheek placement which certainly affected my eye relief. I need practice.

On the ruger, things went pretty well. I printed targets at home that had 1/2” grid patterns. It was on paper from shot one, maybe 5-6” high. I got the scope adjusted to something much closer, though in hindsight I think it needs a little more.

The AR with the LVPO was very close to on out of the box. Luck, or the product of a good design/good company (Leupold MK4).

My groupings were better with the Ruger. The person I bought it from is a gunsmith as well and he polished up the trigger on the Ruger when I bought it. The trigger is noticeably better to me than the Geiselle in the AR.

I’ll post 2 groups each, for now. First the Ruger. These are at 50 yards with CCI Standard Velocity.




And the AR:
62gr Gold Dots



55gr Independence FMJ, 10 rounds on this one.



I feel like I did better with the Ruger but shouldn’t the AR with a 20” Faxon barrel be more capable? I can think of some reasons that might help explain it…
- I’ve never shot a scoped AR before, and never shot an AR from prone
- Ruger scope had twice the magnification, though much lower quality.
- I shor the Ruger first and thus was getting fatigued?
- better trigger on the Ruger.

All in all and based upon the info given to me in this thread, I’m pretty pleased, particularly with the Ruger. It’s pretty close to MOA at this point, with a mid-grade ammo, and not much practice on my end.

From my perspective, not bad at all.

I don’t know anything about a Faxon barrel. I assume it’s higher quality than what would be found on may low to mid-priced out of the box ARs, but that’s just a guess. The fact that it’s 20 inches rather than 16, for example, wouldn’t necessarily improve precision. Higher velocity bullets could help at long ranges, but wouldn’t be a factor at 50 yards. That said, it is probably capable of producing more precise results than your .22, but only if you can use the rifle properly.

Shooting from the prone can take practice to be as good as possible. The stocks and scope positions may have had something to do with what you felt more comfortable with as well.

There’s no question that a better trigger can help with precision/accuracy. I personally don’t like triggers that are super light, but they shouldn’t be a chore to pull and they need to be consistent. Many/most precision shooters prefer triggers with crisp letoffs, but that’s something else that isn’t something I prefer; I like a bit of creep. Heavier, creepier triggers can be more difficult to learn to use effectively.
Again, though: consistency.

Although I believe there are exceptions, in general it’s probably easier to shoot a very low-recoil 22 Long Rifle than any centerfire, even a 223, and especially a semiauto. So shooter experience and skill makes a difference as well as any other factors.

I don’t believe that I fully understand your rear support (bag and can) setup. Having two objects to manage makes things more difficult. If possible, I believe a single bag that’s large enough to properly support the stock would much be preferable. I usually use a small wedge bag under the stock with a somewhat unusual use of a folding monopod. But when I don’t use that I like a bag that’s large enough to not only support the toe of the stock, but that I can also snuggle my upper body into at the same time. In any event, though, I suspect a better rear bag would improve things over a small bag on an ammo can (if I understand you correctly).

As long as the scope is good enough to clearly see your point of aim, and at 50 yards that would almost be a given, more magnification usually permits more accurate aiming. And I strongly recommend finding a small spot to aim at, rather than the center of a large square or circle: aim small, miss small applies to precision rifle shooting as well as any other type. One of the things I see over and over in YouTube videos are people trying to get precise results with an imprecise point of aim.

High quality scope sights offer several distinct advantages over the cheap kinds, but only when we go beyond shooting at short distances with clearly-visible targets, and when no adjustments while shooting are necessary.

And yes, fatigue can definitely affect our shooting results. As experienced as I am, it still gets to me. It not only affects my ability to control and shoot the gun properly, it makes me rush shots, and that’s an accuracy killer.

I would say you’re off to a good start, so just keep after it. Improvement will come if you’re careful to do things as well as you can manage.

This is my standard off the shelf 10/22 with a pretty good scope 4.5 X 14-40 scope shot at 25 yards. Nothing to brag about but the RWS R50 did well. Target #7. On this gun I removed the barrel band to see what would happen, sometimes it makes a difference. With a .22 it's all about the ammo and the barrel. Find what it likes and they shoot well. It won't shoot with a Vudoo,Bergara,or CZ but they are not intended for precision. You can throw some Kidd parts in it and make a huge difference though.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
From my perspective, not bad at all.

Thank you. I am pleased with as a first outing.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
...snip...

It seems to most prudent course of action, at this time, is to practice.


And perhaps finder a larger rear bag.

I took the kiddos up to the mountains today to check out a campsite and do some fishing. I threw the Ruger in the car and managed to sneak off 30 rounds.

Kept the target at 25 yards since the kids were shooting as well, but I did 3 10-round strings at 25 yards. All 3 looked like this, minus one flyer on the first group where I yanked the trigger like a rookie. One ragged hole, not too shabby.

The kids enjoy shooting but don’t have the patience to allow me to get a really good practice session in. I’ll need time without them for that.

Nice, and definitely getting the hang of it.

I just wish, though, when groups are posted, normal paper/cardboard targets were used so we could clearly see the holes. "Splatter" targets make that difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Nice, and definitely getting the hang of it.

I just wish, though, when groups are posted, normal paper/cardboard targets were used so we could clearly see the holes. "Splatter" targets make that difficult.

Noted.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Nice, and definitely getting the hang of it.

I just wish, though, when groups are posted, normal paper/cardboard targets were used so we could clearly see the holes. "Splatter" targets make that difficult.

Noted.

I don't feel all posted targets must be of a certain type. You do your thing. If a type of target works for you, shoot it, post a picture, and repeat.

What does give me pause is a posted target with questionable measurements. It's generally easier to measure center-to-center distances with stiff paper targets. But not every target needs a ruler or caliper.

Your post inspired me to pull my 10/22 out. It is a takedown model which I put a vortex 6x24 on it and never shot it other than to get on paper.

Today, a year later I was motivated to go plinking from reading this thread. So I zero'd the rifle, sort of. I forgot my rifle rest at home in a rush to go shooting, as well as some equipment to zero a new pistol red dot, which I did not realize until I had just about reached the range. So I was working off a piece of wood with a piece of carpet stapled to it. All the benches at the range have these for people to rest their forends on. That's my excuse for poor skills and I'm sticking to it!

Anyway, I was operating at 14x. When I cranked up the magnification I started noticing my breathing and heartbeat bouncing the fine crosshairs and shooting became more a game of whackamole between the heartbeats than smooth shooting.

My results are no where near the ones posted but I'm sure with the rest I can do a bit better.

Keep in mind that I wouldn’t comment about the type of targets people use if I weren’t interested in them.

The splatter types have one valid purpose when someone is trying to spot shots at long ranges beyond the ability of their optics to resolve hits on plain paper targets. And when someone posts a video showing long range shooting results the hits are usually far enough apart that it doesn’t matter. But when it’s a tight group like yours then I become curious about the details.

As I say, if I weren’t interested in shooters’ results I wouldn’t say anything, but I am interested in your journey to becoming a good rifle shooter so I hope you won’t object to my comment. (I would say you are already there, but I have vast room for improvement myself, and am constantly seeking it. )

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Keep in mind that I wouldn’t comment about the type of targets people use if I weren’t interested in them.

The splatter types have one valid purpose when someone is trying to spot shots at long ranges beyond the ability of their optics to resolve hits on plain paper targets. And when someone posts a video showing long range shooting results the hits are usually far enough apart that it doesn’t matter. But when it’s a tight group like yours then I become curious about the details.

As I say, if I weren’t interested in shooters’ results I wouldn’t say anything, but I am interested in your journey to becoming a good rifle shooter so I hope you won’t object to my comment. (I would say you are already there, but I have vast room for improvement myself, and am constantly seeking it. )

It’s a fair point! My trip yesterday was very spur of the moment. I rolled out of bed and decided to give the wife the day off and threw the kids into the car and drove up to the mountains. I had enough forethought to grab an election lawn sign to use as a target and an ammo can with some m22 and CCI SV in it. It also contained a roll of those target stickers, so I went for it. In hindsight I should have grabbed a tarp too, as we got covered in sap and bark and sticks and ants and such while proned out on the forest floor. Lost a few arm hairs picking off sappy hunks of bark and pine cone.

I’m thinking I want to do some dry fire practice being the glass since the best I’m doing is about one range trip a month. I’m having parallax issues with the Bushnell at its higher magnification range, so I still haven’t figured out a consistent cheek rest. It is something to work on.

Also want to figure out a high portable and quick to deploy/stow target stand. I thought the lawn signs would work well, but at least up there in the mountains the frame was to flimsy to easily get it into the ground. I may just have to invest in one of the still stands that holds furring strips that I can staple cardboard too, but I was hoping for something with less of a foot print. Maybe just some rebar and a 3 lb sledge that I can hang cardboard on.

quote:

Originally posted by Nickelsig229:
Anyway, I was operating at 14x. When I cranked up the magnification I started noticing my breathing and heartbeat bouncing the fine crosshairs and shooting became more a game of whackamole between the heartbeats than smooth shooting.

Is your target picture oriented to the way it was shot...meaning was was shot stringing on the targets vertical or horizontal?
At what distance was the target?
What ammo were you using?

I'd like to know this prior to commenting.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by Nickelsig229:
Anyway, I was operating at 14x. When I cranked up the magnification I started noticing my breathing and heartbeat bouncing the fine crosshairs and shooting became more a game of whackamole between the heartbeats than smooth shooting.

Is your target picture oriented to the way it was shot...meaning was was shot stringing on the targets vertical or horizontal?
At what distance was the target?
What ammo were you using?

I'd like to know this prior to commenting.

No it was orientated right side up. I just held it like this for the pictures. I'm hoping to get back out Friday with some better results.

late to this party,

I would recommend the dot drill type targets someone else here was using,


and try some Mini Mags too, seems counter intutive but they do well in some 22's ,


the 10/22 factory trigger generally sucks compared to a true target rifle, but once you get used to it, (my old 10/22 is a bit stiff) it is still relatively accurate

quote:

Originally posted by Nickelsig229:
No it was orientated right side up. I just held it like this for the pictures.

OK, so your dispersion was almost all horizontal -- that's a start.

Vertical dispersion is generally caused by breathing issues (not breaking the shot consistently in the natural respiratory pause), inconsistent use of a rear bag, and/or inconsistent cheek pressure on the buttstock.

Horizontal dispersion is generally caused by trigger issues and/or eye alignment in the sweet spot of the scope's eyebox.

I suspect your primary issue is attempting to break shots between heart beats. Honestly, attempts to do this are primarily only done by talented highpower competitors, when they're using an arm cuff so tight that it almost cuts off circulation. IXNAY heart beat timing. I suspect you're trying to rapidly snap the trigger in the 1/4 second or so that heart muscles are paused. Just breathe in steady cycles, don't hold your breath, break the shot in the 2-3 second window of a respiratory pause. Press the trigger straight back, so the sights aren't disturbed by the trigger press.

If you hold your breath, you will feel your heart beat. And it will pound harder the longer you hold your breath. Rifle instructors have told me that our eyes also start to flutter almost immediately after holding our breath. We don't generally notice it, because our brains compensate -- but essentially this fluttering messes with our ability to keep crosshairs on the point of aim.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: fritz,

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
I’m thinking I want to do some dry fire practice....

I’m having parallax issues with the Bushnell at its higher magnification range, so I still haven’t figured out a consistent cheek rest. It is something to work on.

Also want to figure out a high portable and quick to deploy/stow target stand.

Dry firing is great practice on an AR15 -- ammo costs are pretty darn low. Due to the large hammer swing, you can get a lot of feedback on how well your sights stay on target after breaking the shot.

Don't dry fire practice on an empty 22lr chamber -- you'll risk damaging the firing pin. Use some kind of snap cap, and unfortunately there aren't a lot of good options for durable 22lr snap caps.

Parallax is often a challenge with scopes at their highest magnification. It's best to work through the cheek weld issues at lower magnifications. Don't press down hard on the stock with your cheek. Think of it as a light "cheek brush" instead of heavy "cheek weld".

Allen EZ Range is a decent target backer, and it uses the same coroplast backers as lawn political signs. Its steel legs are stronger than the lawn signs, but they may not be enough for really hard & rocky ground. Rocky ground generally calls for a permanent post -- say, like a fence t-post -- or a stand with a wider base that doesn't penetrate the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Dry firing is great practice on an AR15 -- ammo costs are pretty darn low. Due to the large hammer swing, you can get a lot of feedback on how well your sights stay on target after breaking the shot.

Don't dry fire practice on an empty 22lr chamber -- you'll risk damaging the firing pin. Use some kind of snap cap, and unfortunately there aren't a lot of good options for durable 22lr snap caps.

…snip…

Allen EZ Range is a decent target backer, and it uses the same coroplast backers as lawn political signs. Its steel legs are stronger than the lawn signs, but they may not be enough for really hard & rocky ground. Rocky ground generally calls for a permanent post -- say, like a fence t-post -- or a stand with a wider base that doesn't penetrate the ground.

The dry-fire isn’t for ammo cost reason, not with 22. It’s just about not having easy access to a place I can actually shoot. I know first hand that dry fire can help a lot. I had always heard not to dry fire a rimfire weapon but the manual for the 10/22 says it is just fine. Online sources expound that and say there is a blocking pin that prevents damage from being done.

I’ll probably settle on some sort of stand… I want something portable that can go where I go… at least until I find a more permanent “shooting home”.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by Nickelsig229:
No it was orientated right side up. I just held it like this for the pictures.

OK, so your dispersion was almost all horizontal -- that's a start.

Vertical dispersion is generally caused by breathing issues (not breaking the shot consistently in the natural respiratory pause), inconsistent use of a rear bag, and/or inconsistent cheek pressure on the buttstock.

Horizontal dispersion is generally caused by trigger issues and/or eye alignment in the sweet spot of the scope's eyebox.

I suspect your primary issue is attempting to break shots between heart beats. Honestly, attempts to do this are primarily only done by talented highpower competitors, when they're using an arm cuff so tight that it almost cuts off circulation. IXNAY heart beat timing. I suspect you're trying to rapidly snap the trigger in the 1/4 second or so that heart muscles are paused. Just breathe in steady cycles, don't hold your breath, break the shot in the 2-3 second window of a respiratory pause. Press the trigger straight back, so the sights aren't disturbed by the trigger press.

If you hold your breath, you will feel your heart beat. And it will pound harder the longer you hold your breath. Rifle instructors have told me that our eyes also start to flutter almost immediately after holding our breath. We don't generally notice it, because our brains compensate -- but essentially this fluttering messes with our ability to keep crosshairs on the point of aim.

Thank you. I will try to keep all this in mind tomorrow.