Looks like Wilson guarentees MOA.

I tried calling Rock River the other day to see if their new BT-3 has an MOA guarantee. My ATH was 3/4 guarantee and it's every dam bit of that and then some. Genna ask if they'd pin the gb too.

This thing has got my attention. Rock River accuracy has blown my mind a few times. And their new 308 takes SR25 mags not FAL mags like before. I like the materials here much better also. It's still kinda new and I'm not dying to be the one to experiment, but they might have gotten it right with this one.

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:
A lot of good options. I’ve been looking at LMT myself. LMT’s L129A1 is the British pattern rifle for their sharpshooters. The link to a good article about it and the civilian version (which is several hundred dollars cheaper). One thing from the article I thought interesting (important) is that the Brits wanted a rifle that could also reliably and accurately shoot standard Mil-spec ammo. I’d hate to spend all that $$$ for a rifle that is an ammo snob. At least one of your choices fell into that category according to the story.
https://www.americanrifleman.o.../18/britains-l129a1/

Thought I responded to this. Absolutely the LMT is a top contender. I dig the barrel change option. I like ISO 9000, and all design innovations LMT brings to the table. Not much bad to be said really. You can go from a 13 CL or 5R barrel to a 20 inch stainless 6.5 barrel in seconds.

My concern is how much weight is the new MLOK receiver saving, combined with a "lightweight" stainless barrel and can that barrel bring the precision to the table. It's been shown as far as I'm concerned their stainless HB shoots.

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Looks like Wilson guarentees MOA.

Take any accuracy guarantee with a grain of salt. Sometimes with a salt block.

Some rifle manufacturers may be just barely able to make their accuracy guarantee. Say maybe with only 3-round groups. Or only with a special hand load. Or only with their best shooter at an indoor range. Maybe only while the rifle is clamped into some device, like a ransom rest. Some test only the barreled action, before it is installed in the stock.

Some rifle manufacturers just get tired of hearing customers state that their P.O.S. rifle won't shoot as accurately as the guarantee. Evidently this occurs more often with semi-auto rifles -- rifles which require much better fundamentals than bolt actions. So some rifle manufacturers build the rifle to much better accuracy specs, then back off the guarantee to one MOA, because they know that is expected.

The problem is that few people ever develop the fundamentals of marksmanship that allow them to shoot an AR-15 with any kind of consistent accuracy. The challenges are even greater with an AR-10 -- higher pressure cartridges, more recoil forces, longer lasting recoil cycle, and more BCG mass moving within the action.

We so often see people state their rifle "shoots sub-MOA all day long", and maybe with the addition of "if I do my part". Anyone making such statements is decidedly not a precision rifle shooter. They just were good enough and lucky enough to get a few tight groups here and there. Moving on....

Wilson Combat's accuracy guarantees are from a manufacturer that is weary of hearing their ARs are not shooting up to customers' expectations. I can assure you Wilson's assembled ARs and AR components shoot. Over the past few months, I have posted a large number of groups on steel targets using my various ARs. Take a look at the long distance rifle thread in this forum. I just posted more results yesterday. At distances of 300-500 yards my Wilsons have produced many targets with vertical dispersions of 1/2 MOA or less, with a handful of quality factory ammo types. I shoot in cross winds that hammer horizontal dispersion, therefore the verticals are really what matter at distance.

Yeah I hear ya. I've seen some of those groups you're talking about with that Wilson barrel. From what I know of them they are high quality. However when it comes to factory built AR10s it's hard to trust anyone.

JP has some magic voodoo I understand heating the barrel to the receiver. One reason I don't want to buy a used JP because the newest guns are different. And they are high priced with long waits last I checked.

Wilson is saying their Recon Tactical is sub 8lbs if I'm reading it right. Hard to believe that would be accurate after a few mags. But if Wilson gives me that MOA guarantee I'm inclined to believe it's accurate. Reliability would be my biggest question mark.

I'm aware of the fundamentals and don't consider myself special. I'm after the most accurate reliable AR10, if I include the SCAR 20 that opens it to Semi Auto 308. I'm inclined to look at the military because 20 years ago I could count on their testing to know what was the best or at least tough. Not the case anymore so I'm reaching for all the data I can find. Problem is some of this stuff is so expensive there's little to nothing firsthand to see. I want to walk my happy ass into Noveske and check em out firsthand since my bro lives near there, same would be said for KAC. If I shot a KAC and knew what it did for me that day, I'd figured out which kid to give away to get one. One thing I can say for Larue, I shot 3-4 OBRs that blew my mind. They're a little piggy but I'll take it for the performance. I also saw them shoot all day at their range day and I never saw em malfunction.

I'm going off the belief Noveske will perform up to their reputation. It seems to be the bridge I'm after.

Although my experience pales to Fritz, I've had several AR10 style rifles going back to '94 ... I shot both factory and handloads and typically 10 shot groups.

2 KAC Match rifles, everything about them was exceptional, the first I bought new in 94 .7" 10 shot group at 100 was average, the second was well used but still held a 10 shot 1"group at 100yds.

1 Armalite AR10A4 poor finish and couldn't hold 2" group at 100yds and customer service was ZERO.

DMPS LR308, finish was good but 1.5 at 100 was the best I could ever get out of it.

I've still got a 1st gen SiG 716DMR, a little on the heavy side, mostly the proprietary hand guard. I had to quit shooting it for a couple years due to my osteoporosis, but thanks to modern medicine and a suppressor its back in the lineup ... suppressed it'll average an inch in a 10 shot at 100yds.

Lastly I built a JP Enterprise on a Sharps "Jack" matched upper & Lower set ... its the only one that has outshot the new KAC, .6 at 100yds and its also the only one that I've had the opportunity to shoot out to 485 yds; 10 shot groups, typically 2.5", on a good day a bit better.

Oh excellent. So what year is the 2nd KAC rifle? And what model etc? What does it like ammo wise? I'm trying to recall from your old posts but I can't even remember what I had for lunch yesterday. I do remember your older KAC. Those always stick to my mind cause they were/are a rare bird.

I recall the old SR25 long barrel ones would shoot awesome. Back before 2000 this was almost solely the option for a high end precision AR10. I'd run into it more than a few times at Knob Creek and what not.

Yeah, the 716 from what I've seen is really accurate. Lots of Sub MOA 100 yard stuff out there. I have convinced myself a few times this is the way to go, but if it's being discontinued I just can't do that again with Sig. Unless they start dumping them for $1000 bucks on sale like their 516 uppers I could see jumping on one.

Damn JP. It's like he's got a Burger King crown on his head and he's just laughing at me. Last I ran the rifle I wanted through his setup deal it was like $4400 and 6 month wait. I should do it again.

Add to your list having Compass Lake chamber a barrel for you. Paul at CL has chambered 3 Bartlien barreled 223 AR's for me, shoot very well. Two good friends have also had him chamber several AR's, also shoot very well. If you don't like their stock barrel contours, Paul will contour a barrel how you want it at no extra charge. He'll assemble everything with your parts no charge. CL/Paul good people to deal with.

I've seen them in my "research" and saw Bartlien website recommends them. I've seen the name many times over the years and their rep is bulletproof no doubt. Having a build like that seems to be over the edge of too much precision, less on the reliability side of things if I can say such a thing.

I like the idea of a highly funded company building a tank and letting me know the tank will run or I send back to them. (hockey player thinking of hockey sticks). That's the distrust problem I have with the AR10 in general. Have GAP build me a bolt gun, I have no question it will perform. Insert AR10 and everything changes. (their guns shoot tight, reliability is different). Which is why I don't want to build also. I can pick out the best parts, but what sacrifice of reliability? The AR10 seems to be more specific than the AR15 side of things.

I was listening to that hide podcast the other day with Bartlien guy and I kept thinking the ultimate is getting a Bartlien on the rifle. I just think that lands you in the GAP 10 world. Where you sacrifice reliability for precision. There will likely come a day I want to shoot all 10 rounds into one bullet diameter, but this one isn't that.

I'm after a 308 semi auto that leans toward precision, isn't too "heavy", and is reliable. I don't shoot comps, I don't care about impressing anyone else I just need the rifle to be tough so I can hang my hat on it in case I can never get into another one. Nobody hates finicky ARs more than this guy, and a gun that's supposed to be precise that tosses rounds where I don't want em is just ridiculous.

I get it's not that serious and most will do the job, but I'm trying to maximize the decision because for me it's a big deal.

Rifles are hard because they’re so expensive. It stinks to have a couple grand wrapped up in a rifle and they suddenly stop making parts for it.

I’ve come full circle on semi auto .308’s. I’ve had many of the fancy/proprietary rifles and I’m sick of them. Finding parts is a bitch. I’ve gone back to the good old LR308 (aka DPMS high pattern).

Put a great barrel in there and never look back. Aero receivers are great. If you want a complete gun, check out the new CMMG’s. You can always change the barrel later.

I have 3 DPMS G2’s going up on gunbroker this weekend because I can no longer get parts for them. I love the small frame concept, but parts are just too proprietary. Once I dumped the proprietary guns and went back to rolling my own, it was like a weight was lifted. No more stressing to find stuff that will fit.

Amen brother. Sorry you have to put your stuff up for sale. I need to look at CMMG. Just figured the accuracy wasn't there. I'll check it out. For me it's a big enough cost it took me 5 years to even get to the table and I'm still not there.

Your rifles are like the Sig 716 to me. It gets canned because they are discontinuing it. Why? Wasn't good enough? Something better? Who knows? But it pushes me out. There's plenty of others to pick from now.

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
That's the distrust problem I have with the AR10 in general. Have GAP build me a bolt gun, I have no question it will perform. Insert AR10 and everything changes. (their guns shoot tight, reliability is different). Which is why I don't want to build also. I can pick out the best parts, but what sacrifice of reliability? The AR10 seems to be more specific than the AR15 side of things.

I don't think you understand all the issues with an AR10. Its design is not universally accepted, like an AR15. The closest thing to a universal standard is the SR25/DPMS LR308 or whatever one decides to call it. Magpul magazine compatible, DPMS barrel extension and BCG. There are multiple manufacturers out there for the parts. It appears that more and more companies are sticking to this style. Still, it is best to use the same brand of upper and lower.

When a 'smith or a manufacturer uses relatively standard parts, another 'smith who is comfortable with such parts can repair/replace/upgrade the rifle over time. Gunsmithing isn't a secret talent that is known only by a few 'smiths working in mega companies. There are many talented 'smiths scattered about the country, as evidenced by the precision shooting that occurs in every corner of the USA. We have a few here in SF. I hold my preferred local 'smith up the level of the best ones at the biggest companies.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the other AR10-type designs (i.e. non-DPMS/SR25) receive much, if any, support outside their own company. If said design company goes tits up, well your rifle better perform with the parts still on the market.

If this scenario doesn't suit you for the long term, I recommend your avoiding AR10-ish platforms all together.

Bartlein and Krieger barrels are among the very best available. Buy them direct if you can. Otherwise go with to 'smiths like Compass Lake, Craddock Precision, or White Oak to chamber the barrels. Craddock has done two of my Bartleins. My two Kriegers were chambered at the factory and sold through Fulton Armory. My AR15 barrels from Wilson (both installed as a factory upper, and by my local 'smith) are really pretty close in accuracy to the Kriegers and Bartleins, but the WC barrels cost a crap load less.

Cycling reliability is determined by many factors. If you want a great precision, you need a tight chamber and a load that's compatible with said chamber. JP and GAP start with really tight chambers -- it takes a few rounds to break in parts. Even then, the guns should be cleaned and lubed regularly. KAC, LaRue, and Wilson will be a little less tight, but still offer amazing accuracy. They still need to be cleaned and lubed.

Jacob Bynum -- owner of Rifles Only in Texas -- has likely seen more precision shooters and more precision rifles than anyone out there. In a post-training hydration session, Jacob discussed how an alphabet agency arrived for a few days of precision training with their brand new GAP-10 rifles. The GAP-10s had only a few rounds each, just enough to sight in the optics. The agency guys were familiar with precision bolt action rifles, but not semi-autos. In the wind-blown gritty environment of south Texas, the agency guys didn't clean and lube their tight-as-shit new rifles. So a few days into the course, cycling failures were rampant. The agency guys promptly gave up on the GAP-10s, and went back to bolt actions -- which I recall were GAP or TacOps.

A couple years later, I shot a GAP-10 chambered in 6.5CM, in two different rifle courses. The GAP-10 was owned by the Colorado land owner who hosted Rifles Only courses. This GAP-10 is the most precise semi-auto I've shot. It outshot a KAC SR25 and a Larue OBR. It made a SCAR 17 look like a cheap toy. That GAP-10 outshot many of the precision bolt action rifles in the course. Not my own GAP bolt action rifles, however. The GAP-10 was suppressed, was over gassed, and the action was dirty as hell by the end of each day. But the owner cleaned and lubed it each night, and then it ran like a top. Every single day.

A GAP-10 is not a rifle for the sandbox deployment, or for someone who refuses to maintain a precision weapon. But for those who do clean and lube their GAP-10, it is an amazing rifle -- crazy accurate and utterly reliable. BTW, this GAP-10 rifle was shot by Nick Irving, who had recently returned from the sandbox as a Ranger sniper. Nick used an SR25 on duty, and the landowner also had an SR25 for Nick to borrow. Nick co-taught that Rifles Only course with Jacob Bynum. Nick said the domestic SR25 felt virtually identical to the one he toured with. Nick was absolutely impressed with the GAP-10, and especially the 6.5CM round -- he had never seen either up close.

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Oh excellent. So what year is the 2nd KAC rifle? And what model etc? What does it like ammo wise? I'm trying to recall from your old posts but I can't even remember what I had for lunch yesterday. I do remember your older KAC. Those always stick to my mind cause they were/are a rare bird.

{snip}

Yeah, the 716 from what I've seen is really accurate. Lots of Sub MOA 100 yard stuff out there. I have convinced myself a few times this is the way to go, but if it's being discontinued I just can't do that again with Sig. Unless they start dumping them for $1000 bucks on sale like their 516 uppers I could see jumping on one.

Damn JP. It's like he's got a Burger King crown on his head and he's just laughing at me. Last I ran the rifle I wanted through his setup deal it was like $4400 and 6 month wait. I should do it again.

Both were 24" Match rifles. The second I believe was a 98 and I didn't get it until 2014, they were built around the Federal 168 GMM. The previous owner had written his own recipe in fine black magic marker on the mags, there were 3 slightly different recipes, it was faded and the mag was worn, but you could still make it out ... and they all worked very well in that rifle but not as well in other rifles ... probably had something to do with the 1 in 11.25 twist.

The JP I built on a Sharps Jack receiver set was about that but including Leupold 8-25x50 FFP ELR scope, rings, dies, powder, cases and bullets I had right at $5,800 in it, but the JP Enterprise 223 I built nearly 20 years ago routinely shot sub .5" groups at 100 and still did the last time I shot it, but that was a couple years ago ... I built it for prairie dogs but all I've used it for is paper. I put it on a Jack receiver a year or so ago and still haven't taken it out ... while I'm furloughed for COVID-19, I should do that!



As to SiG discontinuing them, I decided to not concern myself with that, although it does annoy me. If it breaks I'll either fix it or sell it for parts, think about it, there's not much to break. I haven't checked the firing pin or bolt, but in all the years I've been shooting AR-10's it hasn't been a problem because they're overbuilt.

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
I've seen them in my "research" and saw Bartlien website recommends them. I've seen the name many times over the years and their rep is bulletproof no doubt. Having a build like that seems to be over the edge of too much precision, less on the reliability side of things if I can say such a thing.
.

You can have both accuracy and reliability. The "tight" thing I believe is way overblown! I'm shooting my AR's suppressed only now, very filthy. I recently put 500rds on one of the Bartliens w/o cleaning, runs like a top. Large part of it running is it's gassed right, not complicated to get that right w/o an adjustable gas block. Had it ported for suppressor. I have seen plenty of various brand AR's regardless of tightness and who's barrel go down in matches. Large contributing factor is the owner runs the adjustable gas block at the edge of cycling.

Lots of gunsmiths assemble AR's. Not nearly as many chamber, drill gas ports, cut threads/time barrel extensions..... Compass Lake, Craddock, White Oak are a few who do. No doubt these guys know how to make a AR run. Can't imagine how many AR's Paul at CL has chambered/built over the years.

Want a AR you can show off that has brand recognition buy a GAP. Want a AR that shoots just as well and save a pile of cash... buy the exact same over the counter parts GAP uses and send them to CL or Craddock

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Want a AR you can show off that has brand recognition buy a GAP. Want a AR that shoots just as well and save a pile of cash... buy the exact same over the counter parts GAP uses and send them to CL or Craddock

Exactly. GAP has good gunsmiths, but one pays for the brand name.

The following is from my AR10 -- Black Rain upper, lower, BCG, and rail. Wilson Combat trigger, Magpul PRS buttstock. Bartlein 6 Creedmoor barrel chambered by Craddock. Assembled by my local 'smith.

525 yards, 5 rounds. 2-3/8" vertical variation, and 4" of horizontal variation. Winds of 6-16 mph from my 3 o'clock. Yeah, this is how a GAP-10 shoots. And how a rifle with good components that are properly assembled shoots.

I have had an Armalite AR-10 since 2005. It has been flawlessly reliable and very accurate. Armalite had sales on magazines quite often. My other 7.62X51mm is a Springfield Armory loaded stainless M1A.

I hear ya LC. I have my M14 bases mostly covered although I can always make an excuse to get another one. I have an extra stock so I can feel it calling for it's own barreled action. But I need to get this AR10 thing done first.


Stayed away from here last night cause I hit the beers pretty hard. Probably do the same tonight.

A birdie suggested that Centurion Arms might put out a 308 rifle. Excited to see that one.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
[QUOTE]

Yeah you should totally go shoot that JP. My range is closed and the old lady can't leave a 50 mile radius so I'm stuck here to dry fire. get out there so I can live vicariously though you. I'd love to see how that shoots.

2nd glance I'm seeing one is a 223 and both on Sharps with JP parts, it appears. Looks like that rig and a 8-25 you could cherry pick Prairie Dog eyeballs with that bad boy.

I picked up a Ruger SR762 which is a decent enough rifle, but then like many other .308 AR's they dropped it.
If it breaks it's back to Ruger to get it fixed for anything related to the upper receiver, in production or not.
In retrospect, I'm not running a suppressor and should have just gotten a DI gun.
But I did find out who makes the Ruger receivers and a stripped upper is $99, DPMS pattern so that works out in getting it barreled easier.
I was planning on getting a stripped upper and just build a DI upper but it looks like it will be just as easy to get a decent barrel and gas system and convert mine over to DI.
Kind of the long way around to go about it and I could just sell it and pick up a Sig 762i but eh, I just may end up with one of those anyway.

Yeah that def seems like the long way around. But hey whatever makes you happy.

Last Fall, Sig came out and did a shoot for us. The DMR was impressive, trigger wasn't that great and still everyone that shot it was shooting .75 MOA at least. A better trigger and more time on the gun and I think .5 would be realistic. Based on that we ordered one. Supposed to ship mid May.