quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Rifles that just sit in safes don't need new barrels. They just grow old.

Yup. 10 rounds a season over 60 years is only 600 rounds.

Too low? Double it - 1200 Rounds

Too low again? Double it again - 2400 Rounds

Safe dwellers and seasonal hunting rifles are low milage weapons, which is fine.

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
Could someone explain how a cartridge is "efficient"?

Adding to what ArtieS has already said, it is *generally* true that cartridges with steep shoulders are more efficient. This is why modern cartridges are nearly universally designed with steep shoulders. Additionally, magnums are less efficient than standard cartridges. It’s like a race car, where it takes increasing horsepower the faster you go.

Sometimes, however, cartridges are designed to be inefficient for a reason. Take the 416 Rigby. It takes a lot more powder to get a 400 grn bullet to go 2400fps than a 416 Remington. However, it is an acceptable trade off to keep pressures low. Don’t want a stuck cartridge when a buff is headed your way all pissed off. The cordite that the Ridby was designed for was temp sensitive, so they made the cartridge inefficient for a reason. In short, efficiency is important, but not the only consideration. If it were, WSSM cartridges would rule the world.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Hornady 6.5 140 ELD ammo isn't too hard to find at $23 to $24 per box of 20. I've shot it out to 1800 yards with quite respectable accuracy. The number of companies offering 6.5 Creedmoor match ammo continues to increase, with many loads in the $27 to $32 per box ballpark.

I have to say, as long as Hornady keeps making their 6.5 Creedmoor match ammo and selling at such a reasonable price, I'm likely to stick with the 6.5 CM.

I average about 1/2 MOA at 100 yards and about 3/4 MOA at 300 yards with the 140gr AMAX load out of a 9-pound custom rifle with a 20" #4 sporter profile barrel.

It's a lot of fun to shoot at paper and it lets me make the most of the very limited amount of time I can dedicate to deer and especially turkey hunting. Turkey hunting with a shotgun is a hell of a lot of fun but it has a low percentage of success. These days, I find a turkey, walk to within 100 yards or so, and put a bullet through its spine. Quick, easy, and no looking for wounded animals. (Please note: Some places, turkey hunting with a rifle is illegal. Where I turkey hunt, rifles are allowed.)

Ok guys. You win. I am betting you could go a new Tikka in .243 and shoot 5000 rds in 40 rds sessions and it would still shoot like new. But again. You guys know it all. And brag about burning out barrels. It is all good. Keep it up.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Ok guys. You win. I am betting you could go a new Tikka in .243 and shoot 5000 rds in 40 rds sessions and it would still shoot like new. But again. You guys know it all. And brag about burning out barrels. It is all good. Keep it up.

You are arguing with guys who do shoot more than 5000 rounds through their rifles.....

Probably with data cards keeping track of group size so they have a good metric for when a barrel is starting to go.

They aren't bragging about burning out barrels. They are acknowledging the fact that some cartridges are harder on barrels than others.

As well as availability of ammunition developed to do specifically what the OP stated he was interested in doing.


There is no reason to be butthurt because the rifle you like is chambered in a cartridge that doesn't fit a certain niche as well as a different cartridge. Clearly your 243 does what you want it to do, enjoy it.


You are asserting that all those guys who are shooting PRS, NRA High Power, Benchrest.... etc are wrong to replace their very expensive match grade barrels. Do you really think you know better than they do concerning a sport that they take part in but you do not?


Every cartridge has advantages and limitations. Higher velocity is an advantage that earns you a disadvantage of greater recoil and reduced barrel life. The combination of the amount of powder burned and the diameter of the bore has a lot to do with how a barrel erodes.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Yeah, like I said I am not a long distance paper tiny hole puncher.

So there are better options for that.

Some of you guys always turn these threads into "burn out a barrel" thread. Which gets old.

I love the .243

I get where you are coming from but honestly you are comparing apples to oranges here,

re the barrel burn out,

IB, I don't care how many rounds anyone shoots or why they shoot it. I couldn't care less.

The op asked specifically about the .243 and then our experts chime in that the .243 barrel life is such and such. My practical experience is different then their's.

i also admitted I am not a tiny hole paper puncher. Not interested in spending that time and money on it.

So I understand that the .243 might not be the best for that function.

My practical experience is that the .243 is a huge asset to t the shooting community and that a couple thousand rounds down the pipe doesn't mean the barrel is done for the most of us. That is all.

Back to the "I have a new barrel in the corner to replace the one I have mostly burned up" discussion.

You guys are always a hoot.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:

The op asked specifically about the .243 and then our experts chime in that the .243 barrel life is such and such.

He asked SPECIFICALLY about the .243 vs the 6.5 CM.

quote:

You are asserting that all those guys who are shooting PRS, NRA High Power, Benchrest.... etc are wrong to replace their very expensive match grade barrels. Do you really think you know better than they do concerning a sport that they take part in but you do not?

when I was an active high power shooter 15yrs ago or so, I knew a few Distinguished shooters that had gone distinguished on the M14,
they were interested in building a M14 in 243,
several also were interested in an AR 10 type as well as a bolt gun,

none actually built one, due to barrel life (most of the M14 guys used a barrel about a season and a half, in 308)

a bunch of the varmint crowd (whistle pig shooters) in 60's and 70's around here build HB guns in 243,
great cartridge for ground hogs (whistle pigs) and also deer legal in Va,

I bought a couple of collections from older shooters, and when I was selling the rifles, the first question was what caliber, the second was how many rounds thru it,

243 (and 220 swift) buyers are very conscious about round count

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
I am considering a second rifle. I have a .308 Savage Trophy Hunter XP, and I am looking for some more distance, strictly for paper or metal.

Continuing on this subject....

Assuming you have already been using the Savage for ringing steel and and punching paper, what kind of distances are you currently shooting? What's your ammo? What basic level of accuracy are you seeing?

How do you expect the second rifle to improve upon the performance you are seeing with your existing Savage? Expected distances and target sizes? What shooting positions -- bench off bags, prone with bipod, static positions, shoot-and-move off barriers?

Do you expect enter formal competitions, just get together with local buddies for bragging rights over beers, or is this a solo zen enlightening endeavor?

Do you expect to deal with targets of unknown distances or will your targets be ranged in advance of shooting? Do you expect a generally slow & casual shooting pace or will you be on the clock to get a number of rounds off in a limited time frame?

Do you have a lot of wind in your area or do shooting ranges generally have calm conditions?

How dedicated to shooting do you expect to be? Is this a once every now and then thing or will you be buying ammo by the case?

I am really spending a boatload of hours at work, but if you provide expected target distances, I can run the ballistics flight numbers between a few calibers & theoretical loads. Bullet drop and drift metrics can be eye openers.

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
Thanks all, this has been a fascinating discussion! Exactly what I wanted to learn.

Could someone explain how a cartridge is "efficient"?

Adding to the other answers using 6mm's as examples. Other smaller capacity/less powder 6mm cases can be easily driven to 243 velocities or near. EX, 6x47, 6CM, 6 Dasher....The advantage better barrel life. The longer the barrel life, load stays consistent longer. Big deal as a competitive shooter. 6x47's would slow down in the low teens, Dasher 2K. Guessing a 243 well under 1K. 6 Dasher is about as efficient as it gets. 31.5-33 grains/105 class bullet mid/high 29xx. Also I strongly believe from shooting a variety of calibers in the last several years, short powder columns are easier to tune, simply shoot better. The stubby 6BR is proof of that, how many records that case holds... Barrels will shoot well once they slow down, but will have to chase the load/dump more powder in the case to get them back in the node. That slowing down is a indicator getting near the end.

6.5CM is not the latest hotness. It's here to stay! Lapua making brass, all the factory rifles being offered in it, variety of factory ammo....

FYI, the Dasher was introduced in 1999, took me awhile to find it!

Have fun!

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
I am considering a second rifle. I have a .308 Savage Trophy Hunter XP, and I am looking for some more distance, strictly for paper or metal.

Continuing on this subject....

Assuming you have already been using the Savage for ringing steel and and punching paper, what kind of distances are you currently shooting? What's your ammo? What basic level of accuracy are you seeing?

How do you expect the second rifle to improve upon the performance you are seeing with your existing Savage? Expected distances and target sizes? What shooting positions -- bench off bags, prone with bipod, static positions, shoot-and-move off barriers?

Do you expect enter formal competitions, just get together with local buddies for bragging rights over beers, or is this a solo zen enlightening endeavor?

Do you expect to deal with targets of unknown distances or will your targets be ranged in advance of shooting? Do you expect a generally slow & casual shooting pace or will you be on the clock to get a number of rounds off in a limited time frame?

Do you have a lot of wind in your area or do shooting ranges generally have calm conditions?

How dedicated to shooting do you expect to be? Is this a once every now and then thing or will you be buying ammo by the case?

I am really spending a boatload of hours at work, but if you provide expected target distances, I can run the ballistics flight numbers between a few calibers & theoretical loads. Bullet drop and drift metrics can be eye openers.

Those are excellent questions, but at my level, I don't want to waste your time on that. Thanks for the offer, though. Actually, I don't know any of that yet, other than I've been punching paper at 100 yards with my .308.

But I've started the process of looking at a second bolt-action rifle. I have a Glenfield Model 60 in .22LR and an AR. I don't hunt, so I wasn't thinking about something for hunting, but I found that one of my local ranges has a course in long-distance shooting, and with all the hype about 6.5CM, I thought I'd do some studying on the topic. One of the sources I came across mentioned .243 as an alternative, so I thought I'd ask the forum, and, as I said, what I have learned in this thread has been very valuable. I'm a believer in learning from those who know more about a subject than I do.

my version of "long distance" is 200 yards at a car door or 300 yards at a small garage door

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
my version of "long distance" is 200 yards at a car door or 300 yards at a small garage door

Remind me not to move next door to you.

I am very grateful to the members who have extensive experience with precision rifle shooting and go to the time and effort to share their knowledge with the rest of us. I know a lot about many aspects of guns, shooting, ballistics, etc., but hardly everything, and when an authority posts about something I’m interested in, I pay attention.

In this thread, barrel life is something that hasn’t affected me too much, but it’s good to know something about it because sooner or later it will (I hope). There’s a vast difference in the needs and expectations between the hunter who fires a few rounds a year and someone who regularly shoots at paper or steel. Although I don’t do the latter very often, when I do, a single session frequently involves firing more rounds than most hunters do in a decade. For people in the latter group, if barrel life doesn’t concern them, great: Ignore the discussion about that topic, just as I ignore discussions about cartridge “efficiency” because that’s not something I’m concerned about.

Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
....I've been punching paper at 100 yards with my .308.

Got it. So this is likely premature, but here's a theoretical flight ballistics comparison of a few cartridges. The 308 and 6.5CM are my actuals, the 6CM and 243 are guesses. The figures are from JBM ballistics at 5,000' density altitude. Bullet drop and drift are in MOA (minutes of angle). Wind drift values are for a 10 mph crosswind from either the right or left.

308 Win, Federal GMM 175, 2620 fps muzzle velocity
300 yards -- 4.5 drop, 1.9 drift
500 yards -- 11.1 drop, 3.3 drift
700 yards -- 19.1 drop, 5.0 drift

6.5CM, Hornady 140 ELD-M, 2820 fps muzzle velocity
300 yards -- 3.6 drop, 1.3 drift
500 yards -- 8.8 drop, 2.4 drift
700 yards -- 14.9 drop, 3.5 drift

6CM, Hornady 108 ELD-M, 2920 fps muzzle velocity
300 yards -- 3.2 drop, 1.5 drift
500 yards -- 8.2 drop, 2.6 drift
700 yards -- 14.2 drop, 3.8 drift

243 Win, Berger Hybrid 105, 3000 fps muzzle velocity
300 yards -- 2.9 drop, 1.3 drift
500 yards -- 7.6 drop, 2.4 drift
700 yards -- 13.1 drop, 3.5 drift

308 is the old standard, but newer cartridges show how the venerable 308 is getting long in the tooth for precision shooting. From a wind drift point, the 6.5 and 6.0 rounds are fairly similar -- and noticeably superior to the 308.

The 6.5 flies much flatter than the 308, but the 6's fly even flatter than the 6.5. Note that the 243 does fly a little flatter than the 6CM. And of course, the 6's will have less recoil than the 6.5, which has less recoil than the 308.

Very interesting comparison, Fritz. So the main disadvantage of the .243 is the barrel life, right? I can definitely see that being a factor if I get into competition.

How does the recoil differ between the 6.5CM and the .243? Obviously, the recoil of the 6CM will be less than that of the 6.5CM.

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
a bunch of the varmint crowd (whistle pig shooters) in 60's and 70's around here build HB guns in 243,
great cartridge for ground hogs (whistle pigs)

Pretty much what I did for my custom ground hog/crow killing machine, where this same .243 worked really well when I lived in windy UT, plugging at distant rock chucks.



It was between 22/250 or .243, and I have never regretted the choice. BTW, talk about flat shooting; you can drive 100 gr bullets to 3200 FPS+ with 7828. I love and own a 6.5x55, but .243 is VERY hard to beat in many ways.

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
How does the recoil differ between the 6.5CM and the .243? Obviously, the recoil of the 6CM will be less than that of the 6.5CM.

Putting things in perspective, according to the charts:

308 = 16-18 foot pounds of recoil energy
6.5 = 12-14 foot pounds
243 = 8-11 foot pounds (6CM will be about the same)
6 Dasher = 7-8 foot pounds (estimated from similar cartridges)
223 = 3-4 foot pounds

Adding a good brake or suppressor will roughly cut the recoil in half.

Steel match competitors are very cognizant of recoil -- we must spot our own impacts, then adjust for errors in windage and/or elevation for quick follow up shots. A high-recoiling caliber tends to knock our sight picture off the target, making self-spotting a challenge.

A braked/suppressed 6 Dasher in a heavy rifle is silly easy to spot impacts, even on targets as close as 150 or 200 yards. Furthermore, its recoil is so mild that most shooters can follow their bullet's trace all the way to the target.

I really hope that one of these years, some company provides factory-loaded Dasher match ammo at a reasonable price.

AU,

There certainly can be advantages to 6mms over 6.5s for some things. Loaded to potential they will fly flatter and have less recoil. That can be advantageous for somebody having to shoot from odd positions where recoil affects you and for unknown distance targets. Just have to know that it comes with a price. Of the two you have listed 6.5 creedmoor is the clear advantage if for no other reason that you will be using factory ammo. There are just a lot of offerings to satisfy target shooting or hunting and at a reasonable price.

My 6 creedmoor hunting load is 105 Berger VLDH at 3200 depending on particular barrel. It is wicked on Deer and hogs. The target load is 105 Berger hybrids at 3140. Its a very good target load that has really good trajectory and not much recoil. I don’t worry about losing brass because it’s cheap and is just an overall easy to load for cartridge. I also know that around 1200 rounds I’ll be installing a new barrel. It’s just fact of life and doesn’t bother me because I have blanks on the shelf and can have another one installed in an evening. I could load differently and stretch the life out some but it’s not worth it to me.

Since 6mms can be an advantage for certain things and competitions people chase that dream cartridge that gives Them the advantages of a 6 and the life and stability of a 6.5. 6s at that performance level has just not happened. So they chase the best compromise between performance and life. Right now the BR based cases with most being dasher have been the best. Extreme precision and a barrel that doesn’t drop off until 2k or so rounds. For most of the targets the ballistic differences are negligible and they reap the benefits. For 243 that drop can be way shy of 1k rounds with this performance level. 6creedmoor, 6x47, and others fall in between.

There will always be new things tried and old faithfuls that people keep coming back to. There will also always be different needs. The good thing is there’s nothing wrong with that and there are a lot of options.


ETA:

I remember meeting you at a sigforum shoot one year. Not sure which range you are shooting at but I would happily bring examples of most things listed in this thread and let you try them out when you are ready. There are two good options in SC I know of and am fine with either one. Email is fine if you don’t want to post here.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jelrod1,