I am considering a second rifle. I have a .308 Savage Trophy Hunter XP, and I am looking for some more distance, strictly for paper or metal.

I know 6.5CM is the current hotness, but I would like to see a little discussion comparing it to the .243 Winchester.

What says the forum?

Do you reload?

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Do you reload?

No.

Easy then.

Lots of good match ammo available for the 6.5CM.

Besides that, the 243 is a horribly inefficient caliber.

Relying on factory ammo pretty much eliminates 243 Win. I believe one or two companies make 243 match ammo, but it will be expensive.

6.5 Creedmoor is popular for a number of reasons -- not the least being quality factory ammo being available at a reasonable price.

If your really feel a .243-sized bullet is in the cards, factory 6.0 Creedmoor ammo is available. But it doesn't have the following of 6.5 Creedmoor.

Other things to consider:
6mm bores have lower barrel life than 6.5 bores. I retired my first 6.5 Creedmoor barrel at 3200 rounds. Offgrid (and others) can provide better info on 6mm bore life, but I think his 6x47 rifles were less than 2,000 rounds.

6mm will fly flatter than 6.5, and with the right bullet maybe with a little less wind drift. However, at extremely long distances there is the possibility that the heavier 6.5 bullets buck the wind a little better.

There's noticeably less recoil from a 6mm bore chambering.

If you hand load, I'd have you ask offgrid and others about 6 Dashers. One of these days, maybe someone will sell loaded Dasher ammo.

I love the .243win

I do not care about the technical facts. I love the .243

I am not a long distance hole puncher though.

Of those two, definitely 6.5CM.

Buzz me sometimes if you're close and want to try one.

RMD

<EDIT> Grammar mistake DUH!!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rduckwor,

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I love the .243win

I do not care about the technical facts. I love the .243

I am not a long distance hole puncher though.

Pretty much where im at. Its the ultimate utility round for me. While I do have an FN SPR being built in 6.5CM and another FN SPR in .308, the 243 I have probably get the most use out any of my rifles save for maybe the .22's. Cant say the 6.5CM couldnt repalce it but if all else is equal....factory 243 can be had really cheap.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I love the .243win

I do not care about the technical facts. I love the .243

I am not a long distance hole puncher though.

Same here. I have a heavy barreled rifle that I shoot mid range with (~300 yards) and it does fine.
Ammunition is plentiful and easy to get.

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
I know 6.5CM is the current hotness, but I would like to see a little discussion comparing it to the .243 Winchester.

I did a quick search on match-grade 243 ammo. If you truly want to do precision long-distance shooting, you want match bullets. Now occasionally you'll get a VLD hunting or ballistic tip bullet that's accurate and has a decent ballistic coefficient, but it will be a crap shoot. So the current 243 loaded ammo on the market:
HSM 85 HPBT, $26 per box of 20. The bullet is on the light side, but this may be the most cost effective option.
Double Tap 105 HPBT, $44 per box.

Copper Creek Ammo, all at $40 per box:
115 DTAC
105 Berger Hybrid
108 Hornady ELD-M

There a number a 243 loads with fairly decent bullets (although meant for hunting or varmints) which generally cost $25 to $35 per box. Probably take a lot a testing to find one that works well. This will be expensive and will burn up a good portion of a match barrel's accurate lifespan. BTW, Corbon and Black Hills no longer offer match-grade 243 ammo.

Hornady 6.5 140 ELD ammo isn't too hard to find at $23 to $24 per box of 20. I've shot it out to 1800 yards with quite respectable accuracy. The number of companies offering 6.5 Creedmoor match ammo continues to increase, with many loads in the $27 to $32 per box ballpark.

****
From an accuracy standpoint over the life of the barrel, my 6.5 barrel pretty much shot very well until I decided that 3200 rounds was enough. I did not feel confident going into last year's ELR match (targets from 500 to 1700 yards) with a barrel that might crap out at any moment. The 'smith who switched out barrels stated the barrel's throat was really eroded and there was a long jump before the bullets engaged the lands. The old barrel shot well at 100-500 yards, but for targets at 700-1000 yards I was occasionally getting a WTF low impact. FWIW the old barrel was still would hold 1 MOA or less when pulled. My new barrel effectively has 1/4 to 1/3 MOA accuracy.

People who have shot 6x47 and 6mm creedmoor have stated that once throat erosion begins, they must continuously load the cartridges to longer lengths (to engage the lands) to maintain accuracy. IIRC this might begin at 1200 to 1500 rounds. So you might get a few hundred more rounds before the barrel is toast from a precision match standpoint. But if you don't handload, accuracy degradation may be a fact of life until a barrel is pulled. Note that a 243 will erode throats slightly faster than a 6x47 or 6 Creedmoor.

Ultimately, the shooter must decide if the benefits of 6 or 6.5 mm bores outweigh their benefits.

I agree with everything Fritz mentioned but would also add that the shoulder geometry on the 6x47 and 6mm Creed lend to longer barrel life over the .243 because it dissipates the flame cutting that erodes the throat and lands. The lesser shoulder angle on a traditional .243 allows a more direct flame and lends to quicker erosion. I would expect the round count Fritz gave to be less with a .243.

Besides the 6.5 CM is incredibly versatile and accurate and quality factory match ammo can be had at an affordable price over the .243.

My .243 rifles that are at least 50-60 years old still shoot
very well



But I am sure the barrels are shot

quote:

Originally posted by rduckwor:
Of those two, definitely 6.5CM.

Buzz me sometimes if your close and want to try one.

RMD

I appreciate the offer, but I get nowhere near LA. Thanks, though!

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
My .243 rifles that are at least 50-60 years old still shoot very well

But I am sure the barrels are shot

Barrel life for a given rifle caliber is primarily determined by the number of rounds shot through the barrel, the rate of fire (which generally determines how hot the barrel gets), and the user’s accuracy expectations. The type of powder, how hot the ammo is loaded, and the type of bullet also affect barrel life. A modern steel barrel that’s stored in a dry, non-corrosive environment just might have an effective life span of centuries if its round count is low enough.

The casual hunter might shoot an average of one box of 20 rounds each year. Over 50 years, that’s 1,000 rounds. Not a big deal for a .243 that’s expected to hit a 6-8” vital zone region at 150-250 yards, using factory hunting ammo such as Federal Fusion or Winchester Super X. Given the rate of fire and accuracy demands, such a barrel might work just fine for 3,000 or 4,000 rounds before throat erosion toasts the barrel – which translates to 150 to 200 years. Even at an average of two boxes per year, useful life could be 75 to 100 years.

Should the OP decide to actively compete in long distance competitions, round count will occur at a much faster pace. In PRS-type matches, many stages require 10 rounds in 2-3 minutes, with 10 or so stages per day. Barrels get uncomfortably hot to the touch after a stage, and during hot summer days the barrels don’t really cool between stages. A weekend match will commonly mean 200 rounds shot. So the PRS-type shooter will burn as much ammo in 30 hours as the one-box-per-year hunter does in 10 years. And the PRS guy’s barrel will show a whole lot more throat wear in those rapid 200 rounds than the hunter’s barrel.

A somewhat casual PRS guy might shoot 1,000 rounds over the course of the season. The dedicated PRS guy might shoot 2,000 rounds over the course of a season – which pretty much guarantees he’s replacing a .243 barrel every year. Or less. That’s because the PRS guy demands a barrel which shoots 6-8” groups at 600 to 1,000 yards. The barrel that the PRS guy considers toast still easily does 6-8” targets at 150-250 yards, but that just isn’t competitive in the precision match game.

Different uses, different accuracy requirements.

Latest issue of American Rifleman, Craig Boddington, discusses the 6mm Creedmoor, and there are some comparisons with the 6.5 Creedmoor and the .243 Win.

Yeah, like I said I am not a long distance paper tiny hole puncher.

So there are better options for that.

Some of you guys always turn these threads into "burn out a barrel" thread. Which gets old.

I love the .243

Thanks all, this has been a fascinating discussion! Exactly what I wanted to learn.

Could someone explain how a cartridge is "efficient"?

quote:

Could someone explain how a cartridge is "efficient"?

How much powder, heat and pressure is necessary to get the required performance to the bullet.

In quick terms, think about the .30-06 vs the .300 Win Mag. The .300 mag has more then 25% more case capacity than the .30-06 but in general only has about 10% more velocity for a given bullet weight than the .30-06. Thus, the .30-06 is significantly more "efficient" than the .300 mag when it comes to recoil, powder consumption, heat, pressure and the resulting throat erosion and barrel wear.

In other cases, efficiency can be used to describe "ballistic efficiency" which is the combination of velocity, BC, sectional density and recoil that make a particular bullet size, weight and shape ideal for a human to shoot through a gas with the properties of air. Currently, 6.5mm seems to be the sweet spot for a bullet that is reasonable for a human to shoot through a firearm of reasonable weight, in air, for long range performance and accuracy.

Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Some of you guys always turn these threads into "burn out a barrel" thread. Which gets old.

When you shoot a lot, barrels become consumable items. Those Dasher barrels that jelrod has pictured with the "IX" and "X" markings were spun up for offgrid. That's offgrid's way to know they are Dasher barrels #9 and #10. Prior to using a Dasher as his competition round, IIRC offgrid has shot out barrels in 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47, 6x47, and some form of 7mm. That makes for a bunch of heavy stainless steel tomato stakes in his back yard.

I'm relatively new to this PRS competition game, so I've retired only two barrels so far. Another rifle barrel is likely very close to end of life, and the replacement is sitting in my basement. I expect two other rifles may need new barrels in about a year.

Rifles that just sit in safes don't need new barrels. They just grow old.