I couldn’t find this picture earlier but wanted to post it and finally located it. This is two rounds of Federal FliteControl LE low recoil and two slugs out of a shockwave with a 14” barrel at 25 yards. The big hole under center is the two shells of FliteContol. As you can see the shot stays together extremely well even out of the shorter barrel and at a longer distance than you will likely engage at in your home.



Also, here is a comparison of shotguns with different stocks/slides.

Top to bottom, left to right:

-20ga youth model 870 express
-12ga 870 police with factory length stock and slide
-12ga 870 magnum express with Hogue youth stock and extended slide
-12ga 590 that started life as a shockwave but is now a stamped SBS with MagPul SGA





Don’t give me shit about the sidesaddle load out either…I just got back from the range and just filled it with randoms so I could toss boxes

I wouldn't give you any crap about any of that collection... I'm kinda envious!

What's that heat shield on the 870 magnum express?

I would not get the Mrs. a 12ga. Even with low-recoil loads. I would get her a 20ga or even .410ga.

12ga, no way.

Actually I’m not sure, it might have come with it from the factory. I think it started life as some special edition from Remington but I bought that one from my brother and he had TAPCO’d the shit out of it. I replaced the stock and slide and removed some cheap stuff he hung on it, but left the heat shield on it because it kind of looks cool.

quote:

Originally posted by 2Adefender:
I would not get the Mrs. a 12ga. Even with low-recoil loads. I would get her a 20ga or even .410ga.

12ga, no way.

If you are buying a new gun for a female, get her a mag fed 5.56.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
If you are buying a new gun for a female, get her a mag fed 5.56.

I'd like to!

In time....

While I can get behind your wanting to facilitate her gun interests as she prioritizes them, I'm going to fall into the "get an AR" camp.

I wouldn't suggest outright stating it, since you're supporting her in the right way, but if you were to set up a range trip where both were shot side by side, you could probably let her come to her own decision....

Beyond recoil, any 16" AR will simply be lighter and easier to use than an 18" shotgun and therefore much easier for a short statured person, presumably with less upper body strength, to manipulate.

Years ago my wife and I took a shotgun class. She's not at all recoil sensitive, but she did have a relatively tough time moving the gun, especially for manipulations like reloads. She's 5'5" for reference. Granted, my wife has since really buffed up her upper body strength, but when she was your average woman, she did have problems with the gun, even if not with recoil.

Just some food for thought.

You asked about a shotgun so I gave you shotgun advice. My small framed ex could wield a shotgun handily and never had an issue with recoil so it’s not impossible for women to shoot 12ga at all.

But the advice of an AR, particularly chambered in 5.56, is extremely sound advice and something to be considered. I do keep that 590 handy but my go-to HD gun is a 5.56 AR. The greatest thing about that platform is that it can be customized to any shooter since there is almost an infinite amount of combinations. I am confident that I could build an AR for any shooter from 8 to 80. It’s an extremely flexible platform.

Ultimately whatever you both feel comfortable with is best, but if it helps educate her about guns I’d love to offer you a copy of SigForums own Rolan Kraps book Guns 101. I think it’s an excellent introduction to firearms in general and may be of use to her. My email address is in my profile, let me know if you are interested.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
For reduced recoil loads and reliability, I would NOT recommend a semi-auto. Pump and practice is the way to go.

Tony.

In many situations I would agree, but I have fired hundreds of rounds of fiocchi reduced recoil buckshot and slugs through a Benelli M2 without a single malfunction.

You absolutely need to make sure the combination is reliable by verification with a significant number of live fire rounds.

IMHO, a pump action being short stroked by a somewhat inexperienced shooter is more likely than an ammunition related malfunction, assuming a high quality gun and ammo that has been verified to be reliable.

I agree with you. I formed my statement with the kind of shooter in mind that doesn't have firearms as interweaved into their lives as we do. We spend copious amounts of money on "buy once, cry once" levels of firearms, ammo and equipment that the average American can't see investing in.

I also make the assumption that the person wanting the shotgun knows little to nothing about firearms and has little to no experience with them.

"We" have range memberships and know where to buy good ammo and what will work best. "We" know that a defensive firearm should be vetted thoroughly. "We" know we should train with it until we feel the firearm is an extension of our bodies.

"They" don't understand all the things that can go wrong. "They" most likely don't have the foggiest idea of where to train with a firearm. "They" will be overwhelmed with all the ammo selections available. "They" probably think a 20 gauge is nearly double the power of a 12 gauge. "They" will buy something in their budget which is probably won't be a top-tier semiauto. I really want a Benelli M4, but I haven't sprung the cash for it yet.

Learning a pump will probably take them the same amount of time as learning the controls of a semi-auto.

I wholeheartedly respect your perspective and opinion.

Tony.

I'm glad that she has expressed an interest in getting a shotgun, and that shouldn't be ignored. But she'll have to be willing to put in the time to learn and train sufficiently with a pump shotgun to get fully competent and confident with it, if she wants to be able to rely on it for defensive use.

While the shotgun is a done deal here specifically, I'll echo the above comments that - all things considered - an AR is a better long gun option for a less experienced, less physically capable shooter. Because even besides the shotgun's increased recoil, there's a lot more going on with loading and operating a pump shotgun than with a handgun or an AR-15.

At the police academy where I instruct, we teach all the cadets handgun, pump shotgun, and AR-15. Practically all of them, even the ones with no firearms experience, pick up on the handgun and AR fairly quickly. Whereas most of the ones without significant prior shotgun experience will continue to struggle with the pump shotgun even after familiarization instruction and some initial basic drills. And that's without any stress involved.

There's just more to learn with a pump shotgun, and it's less intuitive to operate, compared to a handgun or an AR.

So you'll want to make sure a new shooter is willing to commit to the longer learning curve of the shotgun before getting them one. For a new shooter, when compared to an AR, the pump shotgun's sights suck, the safety sucks, the recoil sucks, the manual operation sucks, the capacity sucks, and loading/reloading really sucks. Those are all hurdles that they'll have to overcome with the shotgun that wouldn't be present or wouldn't be as troublesome with an AR.

Someone's not going to get competent with a pump shotgun in one quick sitting or one trip to the range, whereas they potentially could with an AR (especially with a red dot).

I've been thinking about this shotgun-vs-AR idea overnight, and it's been interesting.

At first, my thoughts were basically "a pump gun is easy. Load, chack-chack, boom, chack-chack, boom.... An AR is a complex machine!"

But RogueJSK made a far better statement than any thoughts I've had: the sights suck, the recoil sucks, the manual operation sucks, capacity sucks, and loading/reloading really sucks. He's absolutely right.

When TLG and I can get to the range next, I'll put both on the bench for her and -- as others have suggested -- let her decide. Depending on what she decides, I may have just gotten myself a nice 870. Bonus: we'll get to go AR-shopping!

Pale Horse: Thank you for the offer of Rolan's book. I'd like that, and it'd be good info for both me and TLG. Will email you later today.

A pump shotgun is a bit front end heavy as well as being a bit heavy overall compared to an AR. An AR will be shorter and easier to fit to her properly. You could SBS (short barreled shotgun) a shotgun at the expense of capacity. Then again, you could SBR (short barreled rifle) an AR and have a very handy rifle for home defense.

A Ruger Mini-14 is another option.

A third option is a pistol caliber lever action, but I don’t know what is available these days. I have a 16” barrel Winchester Model 94 that’s 8+1 of 44 Magnum.

Well, if we're switching gears, I'd recommend an AR pistol like this. My kid shot this when he was 11.



Get some good ammo that expends all its energy into the target and one that's not designed for max penetration, like Hornady Critical Defense or Federal Tactical.

Tony.

The misses has a gucci'ed out Shockwave, and the best ammo for her is clearly the mini-shells. Just get an OPSol adapter and some 1.75" mini-shells and it should work great. Upside is you get a lot more capacity as well.

I run 2 3/4 “ steel BBS and #2 in my home defense set up. I’m a huge waterfowl hunter so I know how they pattern and they actually pattern well out of my 18” 870 barrel. Plus it’s non toxic so if I ever had to use it in a defense situation, they won’t get lead poisoning

There's a lot debate over the usefulness of minishells, but one spot where everyone agrees is that they're great for low-recoil for training or recoil-sensitive shooters.

quote:

Originally posted by JonDaddy82:
The misses has a gucci'ed out Shockwave, and the best ammo for her is clearly the mini-shells. Just get an OPSol adapter and some 1.75" mini-shells and it should work great. Upside is you get a lot more capacity as well.

Agree w/ this except I recommend the Defender Tactical adapter over Opsol. Defender Tactical's doesn't limit you to minishells.

https://defendertactical.com/p...al-minishell-adapter

Home defense long gun? Small frame woman? Shotgun isn’t the answer. Get a 9mm carbine. Ruger PC9 or Beretta storm carbine can be had for $600 and under. The CZ Scorpion can be found at under $1000. 30 round mags readily available, low recoil, fast follow up shots, accurate.

Neither are especially stout, but a blowback 9mm PCC like the CZ Scorpion has even a bit more felt recoil than a gas operated .223 like an AR15.

So if you're going 9mm PCC for the "low recoil", that means giving up a decent amount of terminal performance due to the significant velocity loss in pistol vs. rifle round, for no gain in recoil reduction.

A 12 guage pump and low recoil buck should be fine.
Winchester makes a birdshot load (AA12FL8) that's under 1000 fps that kicks 1/4 of a regular load. Let her practice with those.

Bruce

How about a 9" subsonic 300Blk with suppressor?

handy
low recoil
quiet
good for HD