Sorry for the long setup:

I have a friend who I've known for 8 or 9 years who got into shooting in 2020 and built himself a long range AR in .308. This guy is a master mechanic who works on high end Euro sports cars so he is technically very proficient so building ARs makes a lot of sense for him. Well, he expressed interest in hunting, which is my main hobby so I have taken him hunting at my place the last 2 years. His hunting rifle is a .308 that weighs about 14 lb, has a bipod, and a 10-20x scope, I believe. To say it is overkill for my farm is an understatement. There is one spot on the whole place where you could shoot up to 250 yards. He knows how I feel about his rifle but I also understand he built it and wants to shoot it and he doesn't have another one.

He's a good guy and has volunteered to come down and help doing some work on the farm with me. We clear shooting lanes with chain saws, fill feeders, etc. So he does all of the the right way. And we shoot a little while we're there. So far, he has proven to be fine as a shooter when punching paper. Not a great shooter, but certainly good enough to kill deer at 100 yards and in.

Well, in two trips now he has missed 3 deer and killed one. All of these shots have been inside of 100 yards with 2 this past weekend at about 40 and 60. I found two tufts of white hair at one shot site but nothing leading me to believe there was a substantial hit. I know he is frustrated but so am I. I have been gentle with him (with a bit of mild teasing which I feel close enough with him that it's fine.) Fortunately, we have had clean misses and no wounded deer lost (to my knowledge) but that's a matter of time, I think. I believe he is consistently shooting low and perhaps low left. He shoots targets from a bipod but in the deer stands there is no real rest for a bipod, only a rail to rest the fore end on. I know this COULD affect POI but I don't think it could affect it this much at these ranges.

Can anyone think of anything mechanically or physically that would explain this? My intuition is this is all indian, not arrow, but maybe something could explain this. I have shot his rifle and seen him shoot proficiently so I don't think the scope mounts are loose or anything. It has tactical turrets but he says they are locked down and haven't been changed. I definitely think the 10X scope is a problem at 40 yards and have said so but he hasn't been terribly accepting of my suggestions. And has not accepted my invitation to shoot one of my bolt-actions (of which there are many to choose from.)

So there's the technical aspect and then there is the friend relationship that I'm trying to navigate. Any tips on either is appreciated.

Rifle is fine. Making him think it is not does not help. Scrap the bipod. They can be and are most likely his problem. I would also replace his scope. That is a terrible scope to try and do what you guys are up to. A 3-9 power or 2-7 would be ideal. And keep it on the lower end of magnification. Just use a good rest. If his rifle is dead on and he does not get the jitters he will be fine. Tell him "aim small, miss small."

If he is unwilling on both those suggestions I would let him know it is not going to work. Trying to shoot a deer at 50yds off of a bipod and 10x is silly imho

There is nothing else to it really.

You need to set up targets consistant with how he is shooting at these deer. Same location (if possible), same shooting position and how he is resting the rifle. There is a big difference between shooting at paper with a perfect body position and bipod compared to what is seen out in the field.

Can you talk him into trying one of your more deer hunting type rifle/scope? And could he be getting "buck fever" just before the shot?

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Rifle is fine. Making him think it is not does not help. Scrap the bipod. They can be and are most likely his problem. I would also replace his scope. That is a terrible scope to try and do what you guys are up to. A 3-9 power or 2-7 would be ideal. And keep it on the lower end of magnification. Just use a good rest. If his rifle is dead on and he does not get the jitters he will be fine. Tell him "aim small, miss small."

There is nothing else to it really.

I'm with you. I asked what magnification he had his scope on and he said "pretty low, like 10." I expressed my consternation and told him how I don't even own a scope that goes above 9 and was currently hunting with an old Leupold 1-4x20.

quote:

Originally posted by Alyron:
You need to set up targets consistant with how he shooting at these deer. Same location (if possible), same shooting position and how he is resting the rifle. There is a big difference between shooting at paper with a perfect body position and bipod compared to what is seen out in the field.

He actually asked me if we could set up targets at various stand locations and shoot at them from stands. I see his reasoning but it's also a bit silly. I think we can recreate the conditions in all of the stands from our makeshift bench so we're going to do that. He definitely needs to lose the bipod but each stand just has a plywood or 2x4 rail around 30" that you can rest the fore end on. Or rest your arm on to prop the rifle with your hand.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Can you talk him into trying one of your more deer hunting type rifle/scope? And could he be getting "buck fever" just before the shot?

I think he is feeling the buck fever effects but he also says he felt calm and took some extra breaths and took his time on the last one especially. And he has shot at least one of my rifles this summer when I was zeroing. He was ok, not spectacular, and I seem to recall him shooting low left from where I was consistently hitting. He did kill a small deer last year with this same rifle but only after missing on on the first day.

Maybe just bone up on shooting skills.
Practice can't hurt.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Maybe just bone up on shooting skills.
Practice can't hurt.

This & being new to hunting he may be suffering from "Buck Fever."
Have him turn down the magnification to a more manageable 4-6x & practice at the ranges you are likely to expect.
If he can consistantly keep a nice group at 100 yds. he should be fine.
No need for any holdovers or unders at those ranges with a .308
He might seriously think about getting a dedicate "deer" rifle instead of his long range blaster.

quote:

Originally posted by Delta-3:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Maybe just bone up on shooting skills.
Practice can't hurt.

This & being new to hunting he may be suffering from "Buck Fever."
Have him turn down the magnification to a more manageable 4-6x & practice at the ranges you are likely to expect.
If he can consistantly keep a nice group at 100 yds. he should be fine.
No need for any holdovers or unders at those ranges with a .308
He might seriously think about getting a dedicate "deer" rifle instead of his long range blaster.

Yeah I am thinking of banning this rifle. Or maybe just make fun of it enough until he stops trying to bring it out of shame.

He is using ear and eye protection while hunting? I have found good even great range shooters flinch when not wearing appropriate ear and eye pro which we should all do both range and hunting!
Inside 150 yards is a cake shot hunting but if you flinch due to anticipation of recoil or report you will miss

Is he resting the barrel on the rail or the stock?

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Can you talk him into trying one of your more deer hunting type rifle/scope? And could he be getting "buck fever" just before the shot?

This is what I was going to suggest. If you have to, tell him you'd like to try his rifle. Then hopefully, he'll get a shot with yours.

rambo

quote:

He actually asked me if we could set up targets at various stand locations and shoot at them from stands. I see his reasoning but it's also a bit silly.

I think that is a good idea. It might make him understand what the problem(s) are.

I believe we may be lacking some information here that would better help with providing useful answers.

It would be good to know something more about his sight. As far as I know variable scopes whose minimum power is 10× are rare and likely to be either very high quality (unlikely in this case) or very low quality. Further, I’ve never seen any such scope whose max power is then only 20×; virtually any variable power scope produced in the last 60+ years has a magnification range of 1:3 (e.g., 3-9×) or greater these days. Are you sure it’s not just a fixed 10×? In any event, 10 power is indeed too much for hunting deer at 100 yards, and especially less. If that’s what he’s stuck with, that will already be an almost insurmountable obstacle for the task.

Also regarding the scope, what range is it zeroed at? In a short distance hunting situation (and I assume in yours) it’s not possible to dial the elevation setting for a quick shot (plus his turrets are “locked”) and therefore if the shooting distance is different from the zero, some point of aim adjustment is necessary. Does he have any understanding of that? If the sight is zeroed at 100 yards not much POA adjustment would be necessary at short distances, but perhaps he’s got it set up for long distance shooting?

There are other questions I could ask, but the most important beyond the scope is what does “fine” mean in reference to his shooting? If it’s a 3-inch group at 100 yards when using a bipod on a benchrest, it wouldn’t be surprising that he doesn’t do well using a single rail for a rest. There are PRS and NRL shooters who do fine with 14+ pound rifles shooting at much smaller targets much farther away than 100 yards and using no more than a fence rail for support. They, however, would be putting their shots into half an inch at 100 yards from a bench. Also, when shooting from a rail for support they always use a soft bag under the forend rather than resting hard on hard; that can make a significant POI difference. And when shooting from a sturdy rest heavier is actually better because it helps dampen our involuntary movements. Not good for stalking in the mountains, but often fine from a stand.

There are people who have guns primarily to have them and people who have guns primarily to shoot them. I suspect your friend is in the former group (as I was myself for a long time), and ultimately I would bet a nickel that he just needs to improve his marksmanship. If you can set something up that’s similar to shooting from a stand, both of you need to see how well he can do shooting like that. If under no pressure he’s shooting 12-inch patterns at 100 yards, then his misses while actually hunting are hardly surprising. I have also found a very good instructional technique to let shooters see how they can do and then use their guns to show what I can do. Very often that eliminates all questions about the gun’s capabilities, and then we can focus on skill building.

And he also really does need a scope that can be dialed down to much lower power than 10× if that’s what he has. There are countless moderately-priced models that would work better for hunting at short distances and with a set and forget zero, but that’s another topic. Perhaps he would accept a gift for the work he’s done for you?

Captain, he was not using ear and eye pro while hunting. However, the rifle is a very mild recoiler and not terribly loud, definitely less than my bolt actions in similar calibers. That doesn't mean he isn't flinching, though.

Gustofer, I believe he is resting the skeletonized rail of the rifle on the wood rail of the stand. He may have rested it on the folded forward bipod, which I could see being a problem. You can see a pic of the rifle here: https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/5760015305 The picture shows shooting at 50 yards but we moved back to 100 yards and he was proficient.

rambo, I think I am going to insist on him shooting one of mine if we go again this season before we have a chance to shoot his more.

sigfreund, I don't specifically know the model and specs of his scope but he said the min setting is 10X and it is not a fixed scope. I know that the parts he used to build the rifle are of high quality. When I say he's shooting fine, I've seen him put 5 rounds into about 3" at 100 yards from his bipod in kneeling position. We zero'd at 100 yards and I think he was going for 1" high at that distance, which is also what I usually do. I really don't have any reason to believe his rifle is not inherently very accurate.

I agree that the most likely culprit in all of this is just his shooting in a "deer" situation, but I believed there were enough variables that something could be exacerbating the situation. Unfortunately, when we are down at the land to hunt, we do not have the luxury of a range session. I killed a 10 pointer on our "range" Friday afternoon. But I will certainly go shoot with him some more once season is over.

Based on what I can see, that does look like a nice setup your friend has. I could of course be wrong and I can’t see the scope well enough to be certain, but I strongly doubt it has a minimum 10× magnification. Perhaps he’s just mistaken, or perhaps he mentioned 10 power because that’s what he feels he should leave it at—?

I don’t know anything about him, but one traditional comment in the old gun magazines was that there’s a tendency for novice hunters to leave their scopes set on highest power (in those days 9×). That was criticized because if max power is necessary for a long distance shot, there would usually be time to dial it up; if, however, something jumped up at close range, then a lower setting would be necessary.

As a final thought, your rifles would be more suited for your type of hunting, that's true, but there is no reason he couldn't be successful with his from a stand (assuming 10x is not really the minimum scope magnification).

quote:

he was not using ear and eye pro while hunting. However, the rifle is a very mild recoiler and not terribly loud, definitely less than my bolt actions in similar calibers.

No protection at all? A .308 and not terribly loud? I once went shooting at my sister's ranch in the woods with her and her husband. During a break, I had my earplugs off, and my sister decided to fire off one round (a 9mm pistol). Man, I thought that busted my eardrums.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

he was not using ear and eye pro while hunting. However, the rifle is a very mild recoiler and not terribly loud, definitely less than my bolt actions in similar calibers.

No protection at all? A .308 and not terribly loud? I once went shooting at my sister's ranch in the woods with her and her husband. During a break, I had my earplugs off, and my sister decided to fire off one round (a 9mm pistol). Man, I thought that busted my eardrums.

There is something about shooting a deer out in the woods that you basically don’t even hear the shot. I have killed 50 deer or so and never worn ear protection while shooting one. I’m sure physically it does the same thing to your ears but the same sound that would blow your ears out without a deer in front of you won’t phase you when there is a deer.

I agree with YellowJacket. Auditory exclusion is a real thing.

As someone who is deeply regretting the effects of unprotected loud noises on my enjoyment of classical music, not to mention the inconvenience of just conversing with people, I cannot stress too strongly the desirability of wearing hearing protection at all times when shooting. Whether we notice the effects of a shot or two or not, the damage is cumulative and in time it can become very significant.

In my case in the days when hearing protection was virtually unknown, I was deafened by gunfire numerous times but then my hearing seemed to recover to normal after some hours to a day. After one event, however, the tinnitus never ended and even though I’ve conscientiously worn protection for decades, my hearing has continued to deteriorate. Electronic muffs that permit normal conversations and hearing what else is going on around us is effective and inexpensive these days, and especially when set up in a fixed hunting position there can be no good reason to not use them.