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Let’s play build that rifle. Anything you would do different? Login/Join 
Raised Hands Surround Us
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I was looking for WC barrels since I have their receiver set.
But everyone was out of stock in the 14.7 even WC’s site.
But I just looked and they are back up.
So that is a possibility.
Though they are on the heavier end.


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I think that when those dark voices start calling our name in the back of our head we need to remind those voices who we belong to!
Andrew Schwab - Project 86
 
Posts: 23494 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wilson had a few barrels on sale during Presidents Day. I suspect they sold quite a few, and I suspect their inventory now needs to recover from the sales. Fluting probably reduces 6-7 ounces of a 14.7" recon profile. Fluted inventory will likely be back on line fairly soon -- Wilson expanded their manufacturing facility quite a bit last year.

Whatever WC does to release stress after fluting works. My fluted barrels shoot just as accurately -- if not better -- than my unfluted ones. Many times I've shot long enough strings to have the handguards feeling hot. The barrels still shoot well, accurately and no change in POI.
 
Posts: 7276 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Fritz.

Do you have any experience with Sons of Liberty Gunworks barrels?
They seem to be well regarded and the owner states that if you shoot out a barrel he will replace it.
 
Posts: 1045 | Location: Portland Oregon | Registered: October 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by powermad:
Do you have any experience with Sons of Liberty Gunworks barrels?
They seem to be well regarded and the owner states that if you shoot out a barrel he will replace it.

No experience with SOLG products. I don't know anyone who owns one. I've never seen one in competition or training.

Barrels are consumable parts in any rifle. There are a lot of factors determining when a 223 barrel is shot out.

For rifles that demand sub-MOA accuracy at many hundreds of yards, 5k rounds is about it. For best accuracy, the barrel will be stainless or chromoly. Absolutely no chrome lining. No melonite, nitride, QPQ. After 5K rounds a good barrel will still be MOA or better at 100 yards, but it will produce unacceptable POI variation at 300-ish or more yards.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are rental ranges (think Las Vegas) that put hammer-forged, chrome-lined barrels on rifles, and customers beat the shit out of the firearms. As long as the bullets don't keyhole at 50 feet, the barrels are good to go. Maybe 20k to 30k rounds possible before the smooth bore, the worn out throat, and the eroded gas hole cause failure to cycle/hit target. Such barrels aren't intended for accurate results, and honestly they aren't accurate from the start.

I didn't know that SOLG made such guarantee, and I didn't see it in a cursory review of their website. Could have missed it, though. First, they must state what metrics are used to determine a shot out barrel. If it's something like 3 MOA accuracy at 50 yards, then such barrel should have been retired to tomato stake basis long before such shitty accuracy occurs.

If SOLG has a pretty liberal view of when a barrel is shot out, then it might take 10k to 15k rounds to kill the barrel. If so, it could be a reasonable gamble, just as any manufacturer does with warranty parts replacement. They just build the estimated cost of warranty replacement into the product's cost. SOLG know the vast majority of AR15 owners won't put more than a couple thousand rounds through their barrels, and the owners will never develop the shooting skills to determine when/if their barrels are toast.

High-volume competitors and trainers likely won't use SOLG products, and thus they don't have to worry about guys who fire 5k or 10k rounds of rifle ammo per year repetitively asking for replacement barrels.
 
Posts: 7276 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just a quick peruse on the site it appears they think very highly of their things at least looking at the cost of their rifles.

Reading some of their notes looks like they offer a lot of department contracts at better deals and same for individual officer stuff.
Just a quick look over to me would seem that one over pays for built rifles which could be where they make up for replacing barrels.
Though I could be wrong but you aren’t going to catch me paying those prices for their rifles. Considering I have never heard of them until this post and you are talking LaRue, BCM, LMT, DD, Wilson Combat money.


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I think that when those dark voices start calling our name in the back of our head we need to remind those voices who we belong to!
Andrew Schwab - Project 86
 
Posts: 23494 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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https://i.imgur.com/cwt8S02.jpg

This is my rifle that fills sort of the same role you're currently building for. It's a SOLGW 13.7" P&W East India upper, with a Centurion C4 rail. The lower is a Centurion with an Vltor A5H2/Sprinco Green setup in the back.

I could talk for hours about parts and builds and AR junk. Don't have much time at the moment though. I'll come back when I can add more than just a couple comments.
 
Posts: 5989 | Location: Romeo, MI | Registered: January 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The local trainer and builder holds SOLGW in high regard.
He doesn't sell parts but does recommend them for hard use.

They discuss barrel replacement in this video, duty and match grade.
 
Posts: 1045 | Location: Portland Oregon | Registered: October 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not just barrels will get replaced.
If you wear out the BCG they will replace it.
 
Posts: 1045 | Location: Portland Oregon | Registered: October 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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SOLG's practice of replacing barrels & wear parts is a marketing decision. They just build the costs of projected replacement into their manufacturing model. Given that they are a relatively new company (6 years old?) in a pretty mature and crowded AR15 market, they need a way to differentiate themselves from the other companies. SOLG understands the life expectancy of their parts, and probably has the equivalent of an actuary table for costs. It's a reasonable marketing plan, and I hope it works well for them. "Brand ambassadors" in the field are worth a lot to companies.

Some comments on the videos.
He states that hammer forged barrels cost more. That goes against information I've seen elsewhere. The HF manufacturing equipment costs a lot. One needs a very large volume of barrels to spread those up-front costs. For a high-volume barrel maker, the economies of scale can result in low costs per barrel. There are also statements that support the additional life of a HF barrel over CM & SS barrels, due to the slightly increased steel density from all that pounding.

It's my understanding that the highest cost per barrel comes from cut rifling. This process takes a lot of passes for each barrel, furthermore the machines to produce the tolerances aren't cheap. Another expensive barrel option is Bartlein's BB stainless. It's supposed to increase the life of SS barrel by 40-50%. I have one in a 6mm Creedmoor, but I do not yet have enough rounds through it to know.

He states that there is substantial (20-40%) variability in barrel life from barrels from the same batch, apparently shot in a similar manner. Frank Green of Bartlein Barrels has stated that chrome lining isn't a consistent process. In Bartlein's tests of 308 barrels from multiple manufacturers, they found the chrome flaking beginning to peel from the chamber/throat/bore in as little as a few hundred rounds. When this occurred, accuracy and barrel life went south in a hurry. My experience with unlined/untreated SS barrels from Bartlein and Wilson Combat is a pretty consistent barrel life -- consistent within calibers. For precision bolt-action competitors, there tends to be fairly consistent barrel life by caliber, too. Granted, there exceptions -- especially in the calibers that push a lot of powder, say 30 Nosler or Norma.

I agree that using a suppressor shortens barrel life. There's heat from the suppressor that's transferred to the barrel. With an AR15 there's more gas being blown back into the action. With any caliber and any action, I find that a suppressed barrel has increased fouling. All this adds up over time.
 
Posts: 7276 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Interestingly enough I had never fully perused the parts section of the Wilson Combat site just took a peek at the barrels and saw they were out of stock (at the time) of the 14.7” barrels and went looking elsewhere.
Got done taking a look at all they had to offer and I may just end up ordering everything WC I can.
Hopefully Fritz is correct and the fluted barrels will be in stock soon as I would like the barrel to weigh a bit less.


————————————————
I think that when those dark voices start calling our name in the back of our head we need to remind those voices who we belong to!
Andrew Schwab - Project 86
 
Posts: 23494 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Do they offer the fluted version?
I seen it was an option for other barrels but none for the 14.7

It seems like these days if you think about something too long it goes out of stock and you're off looking at other stuff.
 
Posts: 1045 | Location: Portland Oregon | Registered: October 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by powermad:
Do they offer the fluted version?
I seen it was an option for other barrels but none for the 14.7

It seems like these days if you think about something too long it goes out of stock and you're off looking at other stuff.


I am not sure not seeing it as an option.
Thinking might do the 16” Ranger Recon as it seems pretty light but does not quite appear to be a pencil barrel but not sure how I feel about their proprietary intermediate gas length system.


————————————————
I think that when those dark voices start calling our name in the back of our head we need to remind those voices who we belong to!
Andrew Schwab - Project 86
 
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Wilson's in-stock barrel selection is currently quite a bit lower than I've seen in the past. Even compared to a few weeks ago. It's possible they are struggling to get barrel blanks. In the past I've seen fluted options for just about every barrel with some kind of heft to it -- meaning no fluting on the pencil-type barrels.

I see that Wilson's website currently doesn't list Paul Howe or Protector profile barrels. Sigfreund just received a 16" Protector upper. My 14.5" has a Paul Howe profile -- I don't recall when I bought that barrel.

I recommend calling them. WC customer support has been great for me. When I shot out my first Wilson barrel, their guy spent a lot of time discussing options for my next barrel.

The intermediate length gas system is not proprietary to Wilson. It's just a gas tube length about half way between mid-length and rifle-length. I vaguely recall that it was first done for 18" AR15 barrels -- thinking that a rifle-length system might not have enough gas to be reliable, but a mid-length system might be too harsh. I think it makes sense.
 
Posts: 7276 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am thinking I really do want to do a 14.5” P&W barrel since this will be suppressed I’d like the shortest length possible.

Have not had a chance to call WC yet but their current offering is a bit on the heavier side and I do want to keep weight down.
Also as some have mentioned that a WC or LaRue barrel may be a bit more than needed for this build.

I have found an Aero Precision and Faxon that seem to come in high regard.
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.c...-14-5-mid-cmv-barrel

https://faxonfirearms.com/faxo...to-pinned-gas-block/

The Faxon is made in my hometown so that is a plus but I really dislike the taper at the muzzle end from strictly aesthetic standpoint.

What are folks thoughts on silent capture buffers setups? In reading it seems to be all over the board that it makes them so smooth and quiet it is so worth the extra money then others say just slap some grease on the buffer spring and you are golden.

I’d love for this ARs action to be as smooth with no twang as my Sig 556 is but I doubt that is possible.


————————————————
I think that when those dark voices start calling our name in the back of our head we need to remind those voices who we belong to!
Andrew Schwab - Project 86
 
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I have a Faxon 16" with the Gunner profile that while kinda thin in the front, doesn't bother me.
It did make a pretty big difference in handling and so far I like it better than the Govt profile that it had.
The gas port on this barrel is 0.081" though. I used a BRT gas tube to slow it down a bit.
FN 14.7" light profile with a .750" gas block on the left and Faxon 16" with a .625" gas block.
Both handguards are 13.5"


For the cost of the JP silent I just ignore the sproing and bought ammo.
I do have white lube spray that I hosed the spring down with, about the only thing I have seen accomplished with that is making it messy when you remove the buffer and spring.
 
Posts: 1045 | Location: Portland Oregon | Registered: October 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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JP Silent Springs make a rifle cycle more smoothly than regular buffer spring systems. I never got excited about the sound of the traditional spring, but I noticed it once it went away with the JP Silent Spring system.
 
Posts: 7276 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by powermad:
The gas port on this barrel is 0.081" though. I used a BRT gas tube to slow it down a bit.
FN 14.7" light profile with a .750" gas block on the left and Faxon 16" with a .625" gas block.
Both handguards are 13.5"


Could you expound on the gas port/BRT gas tube a little more? This is going to be the 1st gas upper I have built so I am not really sure what all the differences are. All the uppers I have built so far have been direct blow back PCCs.

Also the profile on that Faxon is not nearly as bad I was was picturing. With the 14.5” barrel and a 13.5” rail would be even less noticeable.

If possible could you post a pic of the two rifles side by side showing the overall length difference.
I am not really sure fooling with P&W a 14.5” barrel is really even worth it. The YHM Turbo is not a super long can anyway.
Plus I could use their Mini QD comp.


————————————————
I think that when those dark voices start calling our name in the back of our head we need to remind those voices who we belong to!
Andrew Schwab - Project 86
 
Posts: 23494 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Raised Hands Surround Us
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
JP Silent Springs make a rifle cycle more smoothly than regular buffer spring systems. I never got excited about the sound of the traditional spring, but I noticed it once it went away with the JP Silent Spring system.


Is the added smoothness worth the added price?


————————————————
I think that when those dark voices start calling our name in the back of our head we need to remind those voices who we belong to!
Andrew Schwab - Project 86
 
Posts: 23494 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Black92LX:
Could you expound on the gas port/BRT gas tube a little more? This is going to be the 1st gas upper I have built so I am not really sure what all the differences are. All the uppers I have built so far have been direct blow back PCCs.


https://i.imgur.com/8rVTZuD.jpg
Here's a quick sketch showing the concept, looking down at the gas port in the barrel with the gas tube in dashed lines on top.

The gas port size controls the restriction of the expansion/flow of gasses entering the gas tube. A standard gas tube has an oversized port to aid in assembly by allowing a touch of misalignment and because the barrel normally selects the port size - this makes it a bit cheaper to manufacture as the hole tolerance can be wider, it doesn't require inspection and manufacturing control to the same degree.

BRT is using that port in the gas tube to decrease the orifice and add restriction to allow less gas energy to pass. This is one of the options available to someone looking to control the gas in their rifle since you can't make a barrel gas port smaller. The downside is higher cost from the increased tolerance/QC (plus whatever markup for a specialty product), and the thin wall gas tube will have a faster erosion rate than the wall of the barrel - your gas tube may have a considerably shorter life if you want to keep that port controlled.

This is part of why gas port selection of the barrel matters to someone wanting to control the build of their rifle - go too big and you need to compromise in other areas. Go too small and you'll need to open it up, but the end result of that is usually a tuned rifle without compromises for inadequate or excessive gas. Companies that don't advertise gas port sizes or won't tell customers what the gas port sizes are doing a disservice to their customer for the above reasons. I prefer to know and I can use that number compared to our vast internet database to have a reasonable idea of how my rifle should run. Other companies run testing, have enough field data, or trust testing like Crane's Mk18 & M4 trials to inform their decision on gas port sizes, and share some of that information with customers - I like those companies.
 
Posts: 5989 | Location: Romeo, MI | Registered: January 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Black92LX:
quote:
Originally posted by Rustpot:
For your stated purpose I would call that "too much" barrel, considering cost vs. performance. If you're looking to hit a 12" plate at 200 yards most average barrels will be of adequate accuracy. The LaRue is intended to be a match shooter.

If you're after reliability I would remove the adjustable gas block. If you want your gun to run don't put moving parts in a critical role within your gas system.


For barrels what would you suggest? LaRue seems to be some of the best barrels but at a decent price certainly not the cheapest but not nearly the most expensive with an impeccable reputation.

Also thought the adjustable gas block was important when shooting suppressed.


Regarding my critique of the LaRue - profile weight was part of the "too much barrel" comment, sorry I was not more specific or didn't come back to this.

Per fritz's comment - Not that you'd want a *less accurate* barrel, but paying a higher price for a heavier barrel with a higher accuracy/performance level doesn't make sense when you'd be better served with something almost as capable (maybe with an acceptable amount of heat drift for a given profile, that weight tradeoff is part of your decision) in a lighter weight at lower cost.
 
Posts: 5989 | Location: Romeo, MI | Registered: January 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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