I have the Mossberg 590A-1. It features the speedfeed stock with 4 extra rounds, that, plus the 8 in the tube and one in the chamber with the safety on, makes for 13, which is plenty of capacity for my purposes...

quote:

Originally posted by hudr:
Hear me out: 12s are heavy. 20s are usually lighter…so much lighter that the 20 can actually have worse recoil when shooting a similar load to the 12.
My .02, YMMV.

I agree…I bought my late wife (5’2” and 110 lbs.) a Mossberg Model 500 youth 20 gauge (it totally fit her physically) but she told me the recoil was as bad as my old Browning A5 (and I’ve always felt the double stage “kick” from a long recoil action shotgun was worse than a pump)…difference was the Mossberg 20 gauge weighed in at a little over 5 lbs. and the Browning about 2-3 lbs. more (both were shot using 1 Oz. handloads at roughly the same speed. In front of those little Hodgdon reloading books (the freebies) there was a numerical breakdown on recoil from shotguns…the takeaway was that a 1 1/8 ounce of shot at 1200 FPS (just as an example) had the same felt recoil no matter from what gauge (the only variable was the weight of the shotgun being used)…I agree 100%. I’ve heard the same from women and younger Cowboy Action shooters…they would rather shoot a heavier 12 gauge shotgun than the lighter weight 20s…I’ve witnessed young shooters say the same about .410 …I think that might be a reaction to being urged to shooting one by parents or others…but I am surprised that the .410 is being touted for serious turkey hunting

I am hopelessly antiquated. Current HD long gun is a Mossberg Shockwave 12GA with Sidesaddle and Streamlight forend. Load is OOB.
Backup shogun is the Benelli SuperNova Tactical.

quote:

I use a mossberg maverick in 12 ga for home defense.

Same here. I also keep an AR15 lightweight carbine close at-hand.

Long story short, I agree with Mike. A shotgun with the right ammo at the right range is a truly devastating weapon. Imagine being hit by nine .30 caliber bullets all at once, moving roughly 1200 fps. And at in-house ranges, the group will be the size of a fist or smaller. My 20" barrel cylinder bore prints all holes inside 5 inches at 15 yards.

As long as you practice and don't believe the myths, you and or your spouse will be fine. No, the sound doesn't scare people away. No, you can't just point it in the general direction and expect everything to land on target.

I also am an empty-nester and not in close proximity to other innocent parties, so that makes my choices different than what others may be.

A Mini-14, an AR-15, or an M1 carbine are all wonderful choices and highly effective as well.

But I also understand disposable income is a real thing, and I bought my Maverick used for less than $200. Also, I can resupply my ammo at the local hardware store or Walmart if I want to, so it's a little disingenuous to act like the shotgun has no advantages.

My daughter picked up the AR and shooting with a red dot was doing very well with it on her first time at the range. I don’t think a pump 12 ga would have been as easy for her to master. YMMV.

I’ve come home many days from goose hunting with a sore shoulder. 30-40 rounds of 12 gauge 3” mag BB or BBB shot is a bit of a pounding. Same amount of ammo in an AR is nothing.

+

My go-to long gun for home defense is an AR15 with an Aimpoint RD and a 20 rd mag with Hornady TAP. But in another part of my house in a small hiding space, I have a 20 gauge Mossberg Shockwave loaded with #3 Buck, the only mod is a sling. Both my wife and I have shot it until we got the hang of it, she finds it manageable and fairly accurate at 7 yards.

decibels vs. "concussion" -- Whether the two terms are or are not interchangeable, unsuppressed guns are loud. Indoors, without ear pro, without a can, all of the calibers mentioned so far cause hearing damage. A few quick Google searches:

earinc.com
- 20 gauge is 152-154 dB, depending on barrel lengths of 22-28 inches
- 12 gauge is 151-161 dB, depending on barrel length
- 223 is 155 dB for an 18.5" barrel
- 9mm is 159 dB. No barrel length listed, load is almost certainly supersonic 115-124 grain

CAOHC.org
- AR15 at 159 dB
- 9mm at 160-163 dB
- 12 gauge at 159 dB
- 20 gauge at 150-159 dB

Silencer Central
- AR15 at 165 dB, 16" barrel
- 12 gauge at 164 dB
- 9mm at 162 dB

Silencer Shop
- AR15 at 165 dB, 16" barrel
- 12 gauge at 161 dB
- 9mm at 162 dB

Good suppressors reduce noise levels by 20-30 dB. Supersonic rounds will always be loud -- depending on the source, the sonic boom is somewhere between 130 and 140 dB. Suppressors cannot do anything to eliminate the supersonic crack -- they only reduce the boom of the powder burn.

At sound levels which are low enough that they don't cause hearing damage, it is generally stated that people with acceptable hearing can differentiate noise level differences of about 2-3 dB. When I worked in a factory and my hearing was tested regularly, my tests concur.

IMO 147-ish-grain 9mm ammo with a suppressor is a decent option for a not-too-loud self defense round. The kinetic energy of this pistol round cannot compete with the kinetic energy of shotgun and rifle rounds, however.

Pure dB levels might not be everything to all shooters. I find the higher pitch of 223 ammo to be a little more irritating than the lower pitched boom of shotgun ammo. After many years of shooting multi-gauge sporting clays events, a 12 gauge with comparable ammo is noticeably louder than a 20 gauge.

On to recoil, per the Chuck Hawks site. The recoil force data is in foot-pounds. Chuck Hawks data seems to be pretty reasonable, based on instances where I ran loads through recoil calculating websites.

223 with an 8 pound rifle at 3-4 foot pounds

20 gauge with a 6.5 pound gun at 16-21 foot pounds
12 gauge with a 7.5 pound gun at 17-23 foot pounds
In sporting clays multi-gauge events, I found the recoil from my 20 gauge to be slightly less than my 12 gauge -- using comparable loads. Recoil from my 28 gauge was a whole lot less. Recoil from my .410 was amazingly light.

9mm 115 grain with a 1 pound pistol at 7.5 foot pounds
9mm 115 grain with a 2 pound pistol at 3.75 foot pounds
9mm 147 grain with a 2 pound pistol at 4.5 foot pounds
Which means that a heavier gun definitely reduces recoil.

In the past year I've shot a fair number of drills with ARs in the Sigforum "postal match". I've shot my 9mm Wilson Combat AR9G blowback back-to-back against my DI 223 Wilson Combat AR15s. The AR9G weighs 7.25 pounds empty with can & LPVO, the main AR15s I used weigh between 10 and 11 pounds empty -- mid profile barrels, bipods, cans, and decent scopes.

My AR9G has a little less recoil than the AR15s, even though the 9mm is a bunch lighter. My followup shots are faster with the AR9G than an AR15 -- and this is with a shot timer on targets. It's not....I kinda, sorta, feel like the AR9G is faster. Less felt recoil, faster follow up shots. Because the AR9G is lighter, I also bring it up to target faster from a low position.

IMO a shotgun is definitely an effective defensive weapon, but the platform produces a fair amount of recoil. AR15s (& similar 223s) don't produce much recoil, given their kinetic energy. 9mm PCCs are a low-recoil option, if the lower kinetic energy of a pistol round is acceptable to the gun owner.

Like many others here, I'd suggest going to an AR type .223 or even 9mm carbine. Because of the muscle memory and training required to shoot a 12 gauge pump shotgun proficiently, more and more police departments are providing or at a minimum allowing officers to carry these in their patrol cars. The pump-action shotgun is going the way of the .38 Special revolver, and for good reasons it's becoming considered obsolete.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
As for pistol caliber carbines, a 5.56 AR doesn't recoil any more than a blowback 9mm AR will

My home defense long gun of choice is a 5.56 AR platform equipped with a Holosun red dot, however...

...it recoils substantially more than a 9mm PCC in either an AR format or the Ruger PC Carbine.

While maintaining the same level of accuracy, the splits of the PCC will be much shorter...when measured with a shot timer. The sights lift much less and there is minimal recoil as opposed to the 5.56 AR

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by mark60:
If you have an AR or can get your hands on one, you might have your wife and daughter shoulder the AR and the shotgun. Ask each one which gun they'd prefer. I had my wife shoulder my Beretta 1301 and an AR platform rifle and she chose the AR hands down.

Did she shoot both?

She did shoot both and while the Beretta was "ok" in her words she much preferred the size and weight of the AR. She finds it much easier to handle.

You know, for some reason, when I first read that, I thought I read that she chose the Beretta hands down. Reading is fundamental. Of course she found the AR easier to handle!

Disregard.

quote:

Originally posted by goose5:
I fear a 12 gauge would scare the living crap out of my daughter. Any here like the 20 gauge for this purpose?

Why not let her try a 12 gauge at the range and see how she handles it. You can get reduced recoil 00 Buck that won't recoil as bad.

Get her an AR or a shotgun...just get her some training if there is a significant level of concern she might have to use it. When the adrenaline kicks in....recoil will not be an issue.

I managed to fire a Remington V3 Tactical w/18" barrel at my outdoor range last year and I must say I was impressed by the reduction in the 12 gauge recoil due to its VersaMax system.
When RemArms gets its production act together and if the quality is high, I'll definitely be picking up one of these shotguns as I think it would be ideal for HD.

If it must be a shotgun, go with a 12 gauge double barrel (20" bbls) coach gun with hammers and here's why: You can leave it loaded with the hammers down. No springs are under pressure as would be the case with a hammerless double or with a tube fed pump/semi auto shotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
If it must be a shotgun, go with a 12 gauge double barrel (20" bbls) coach gun with hammers and here's why: You can leave it loaded with the hammers down. No springs are under pressure as would be the case with a hammerless double or with a tube fed pump/semi auto shotgun.

I do not have any concerns over those you raise. None.

I have, um... a lot of shotguns. I have a few in various locations in the house. One of my Benelli M2's with light in the bedroom. But fact is, any time there's been "let's go see what that was" situation, I took the pistol w/light and left the shotgun behind.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I do not have any concerns over those you raise. None.

Put me in this camp. Never once had a problem with a pump or auto shotgun having light primer strikes, or recall hearing about it. Hammered doubles were obsolete nearly a hundred and forty years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
No springs are under pressure as would be the case with a hammerless double or with a tube fed pump/semi auto shotgun.

Springs don't wear from staying compressed for long periods of time.

Rather, they wear from numerous repeated compression/decompression cycles.

So this needs to be filed under "old wives' tales of gun-related worries", alongside the similar myth of it being bad to leave handgun/rifle box magazines loaded because it'll "wear the springs out".