quote:

Originally posted by xl_target:
A semiauto .22 rifle would be better.

Why is that?
I have long been intrigued by the Appleseed program, and even with scant chance of ever participating I’m curious about certain aspects. If the purpose is to promote the development of rifle shooting skills, why is an autoloader better?

quote:

I highly recommend Jim Owens set of books,

Thanks for this! I ordered the book today.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by xl_target:
A semiauto .22 rifle would be better.

Why is that?
I have long been intrigued by the Appleseed program, and even with scant chance of ever participating I’m curious about certain aspects. If the purpose is to promote the development of rifle shooting skills, why is an autoloader better?

I have not attended an Appleseed shoot, but I made copies of the targets, grabbed a stopwatch, and set out on my own. I thought -- hey this can't be that hard.....

First time through was with an AR15 in 223. I really wasn't close to the desired Rifleman number. IIRC I scored somewhere in the upper third of the category below rifleman. It was a bit of an eye opener.

Second time was with a bolt action 22lr. My score was even worse. I lost a lot of time changing mags and operating the bolt. The shots that I took prior to timing out were pretty good, however. But you have to shoot all the rounds to score well.

Third time with an AR15 in 223. I shot more accurately and faster. I scored in the Rifleman category, but not all that much above the cutoff line.

Fourth time with AR15 with a 22lr upper. Shot a little better than the third time, and I felt it was easier to control the shooting. Recoil was part of the issue.

It's my understanding that shooters can consume a boatload of ammo in the Appleseed classes. Thus the cost of 22lr versus 223 is an issue. I didn't do any practice prior to shooting the qualifying targets. I just went for it, after warming up a bit on other targets, and confirming my POI was good for the target distance. It's also easier to get the rounds off in the allowed time with a semi-auto. Scoring really high with a bolt action would be quite impressive, IMO.

Absolutely for sure buy the David Tubbs book on Highpower shooting! It will take years to digest all that’s in there. If you want to be the best, listen and learn from the best.

At first your biggest gains will come from learning and understanding Natural Point of Aim.

Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
It's also easier to get the rounds off in the allowed time with a semi-auto.

Thanks for the explanation.
As I say, I’m not familiar with Appleseed and therefore am probably missing something, but just based on what little I do know I find it odd that a program that’s evidently intended to teach rifle marksmanship skills to novices (and others) would heavily favor the use of autoloading guns. I suppose it’s understandable if the purpose of teaching marksmanship is to be able to use those skills for defensive purposes, but then why allow .22 rimfire guns?

None of that’s intended as a criticism and to reiterate my ignorance is probably causing some misunderstanding, but just my thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
I suppose it’s understandable if the purpose of teaching marksmanship is to be able to use those skills for defensive purposes, but then why allow .22 rimfire guns?

- lower cost
- easier to control recoil
- potential for better accuracy at the normal target distances, which I believe is often 25 or 50 yards
- a boatload of people have 22lr rifles
- easier to get the youngsters into the program with 2lr rifles
- lower cost, lower cost, lower cost

Years ago, it wasn't that hard to find the targets and course of fire on the web. Probably just as easy now. I found it easy to print the reduced-size targets from a PC with a printer/copier. Run the course of fire on your own, then get back to us with your opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
It's also easier to get the rounds off in the allowed time with a semi-auto.

Thanks for the explanation.
As I say, I’m not familiar with Appleseed and therefore am probably missing something, but just based on what little I do know I find it odd that a program that’s evidently intended to teach rifle marksmanship skills to novices (and others) would heavily favor the use of autoloading guns. I suppose it’s understandable if the purpose of teaching marksmanship is to be able to use those skills for defensive purposes, but then why allow .22 rimfire guns?

None of that’s intended as a criticism and to reiterate my ignorance is probably causing some misunderstanding, but just my thoughts.

Appleseed is about teaching safety, basic fundamentals of marksmanship. Regardless of the end desire of the student. Hunting, self defense, competition, having safe fun with their friends and family. Whatever that end desire is everyone needs those basic fundamentals. As a youngster I took similar safety/marksmanship classes in 4H, single shot bolt rifle 22's. 22LR is perfect for Appleseed. Bolt or semi 22, does not matter, bring what you got. It is not a competition, there to learn! Friend who is instructor has told me some show up with new rifles, what they're "better" off to have, commonly 10/22's that might have problems. Bring what you got, what you know works!