Land navigation with a map, compass, protractor, and pace counts is certainly still taught, and part of many military school prerequisites. I think it's quite relevant, in the skill set of a prepared citizen. As an example: I am able to utilize a 150 acre tract of private land; it's almost completely wooded, with a snaking stream and varied elevations. One exercise had me and a few others wanting to cache the bulk of our equipment at a point from which we'd continue with a reduced load; returning later to get the rest of our things, before leaving. We picked a terrain feature on the map, that served as a good location for our purposes, measured distance, and set out counting paces. We arrived successfully, stashed our stuff, and continued to navigate to a specific point on the stream, to conduct other training. These movements were between 300 and 400 meters; that's long-enough of a trek to get yourself pretty messed up, in dense woods with varied terrain, that you're not exceedingly familiar with. The real success came when we had to get back to our cache; using pace counts and back-azimuths, we arrived at it almost perfectly; there's no way it would have worked out, without the land navigation. I think having paper maps of your immediate "AO" is a good thing; just like having a paper atlas in your car is highly advisable. Many of the hypothetical outcomes that we may prepare for have analog devices and methods potentially more effective than more sophisticated electronics and digital means.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

Having been a NCO for many years and trained many lower enlisted soldiers in land nav and night land nav, I can say that some people just get it right away and need very little help to be good at it, but most struggle with it. Especially night land nav in dense woods.

The last time I remember teaching land nav was at a German Army training area SW of Munich. The area was easy to work. Fire breaks, lots of easy terrain features, etc.. Our kids were just completely lost within minutes. The points were all with in 1.5 KM of the starting point. Some of them could have stayed out there for a month and never found it any of the markers. If a person doesn’t get the concept of orientating themself to a map, then nothing else about land nav will make any sense to them.

We used to use those USGS topo maps for the training sites in the US. Those are great maps. I assume you could still get those for your area.

+

1. Physical Fitness
2. Pistol proficiency
3. Basic first aid
4. Everything else


Yes, I believe people dressing up and running around playing soldier are silly.

But most everything an infantry soldier does can be practiced in common, acceptable, and positive ways through various programs. I just spent the weekend humping a heavy ass pack cross-country and doing land navigation with my son, getting about 6 non-consecutive hours of sleep in the woods, as a part of a very large search and rescue training.

And there are a lot of the things average soldiers don’t actually practice that would frankly be more applicable to us in a societal collapse of some sort.

If you want to practice CQB, you have to have an instructor that knows what he’s doing, and equipment to make it hurt. Otherwise you are not accomplishing anything. That will cost a significant amount of money, but I wouldn’t think of it as unacceptable training.

To become proficient in these things takes a dedication that is really full-time, and perishable when you stop. That’s why there’s scoffing from those that have lived it. The average person is not going to be able to take the time and money to get truly proficient. The dry-firing is a perfect example. Great shooters spend exponentially more time dry-firing than live-firing. They dry-fire more than a regular shooter live-fires in his entire life.

The difference in mindset is hard to grasp. Mastering the basics, being physically fit enough to be able to deal with the stress, exhaustion, and remain healthy or survive injury (and I’m not saying anyone in this thread is not, just in general), those are the foundation. Training is important, but if it isn’t structured and well planned, with instruction where necessary, it can be worse than playing it out in your head.

Something I've noticed post-January 6th is that there seems to be an awful lot of vet-bro gatekeeping around the more tactical side of the house, and the LARPing commentary seems to be a big part of this.

quote:

How do we decide how militaristic a citizen's training ought to be?

I make mine as militaristic as it can get. That's the crux of the 2nd Amendment.

Be capable.

The wolves are at the door (or the tranny titties are on the lawn; whichever). Let us not ignore the crux.

A revisit to ask who was this man?





No, it’s not an Internet meme or joke, nor is it even a “wannabe” warrior. It’s a picture of a genuine warrior, Shai Asher, who along with two other warriors defended their kibbutz home on 7 October 2023 against dozens of heavily-armed savages who were on a mission to murder him and all their families and friends.

The next time you hear someone ridicule the appearance or actions of those who make an effort to be prepared to defend themselves or others, think of Shai Asher and his fellow warriors like him.

The thread with the video link.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
A revisit to ask who was this man?





No, it’s not an Internet meme or joke, nor is it even a “wannabe” warrior. It’s a picture of a genuine warrior, Shai Asher, who along with two other warriors defended their kibbutz home on 7 October 2023 against dozens of heavily-armed savages who were on a mission to murder him and all their families and friends.

The next time you hear someone ridicule the appearance or actions of those who make an effort to be prepared to defend themselves or others, think of Shai Asher and his fellow warriors like him.

The thread with the video link.

Great post.


I forget his name, but there was a gentleman in Texas who pursued, barefoot, a mass shooter. He put rounds on him with an AR15 and stopped him before he could escape and cause more harm elsewhere.


He looked like every regular old retired man sitting around the local coffee shop. He wasn't muscular, tattooed, tactical, etc. He simply had a rifle and the will to do what needed to be done to confront evil.

I compete, and a train, and I have some 'tactical' gear and some gamer gear. Behind it all is a desire to be competent in the event that I am ever forced to confront evil. I don't think that I am some kind of special forces badass. But I know how to run a gun, and I would like to think that I would step up if I were ever thrown into such a situation.

And another one. A 70-year-old who picked up a rifle and along with a friend defended his kibbutz on 7 October 2023.





Some points to consider from the video:
The two evidently had a total of seven magazines with about 25 rounds each.
Some of the magazines were defective and they had to unload them and load other mags.
They ultimately ran out of ammunition.
They believe they hit 14 terrorists, and nine bodies were found at the end.

Does any of that have any relevance to what could happen here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzwj2uR76Uo

I think all of it has a degree of relevance, here in America. Our potential problems aren't as cut-and-dried as sharing a border with a known-hostile neighbor, but I believe there is no shortage of similarly-minded cells, here in America. Not to mention our potential for internal political or race-related conflict, or the possibility of larger scale aggression by a "more established" world power.

The minuteman is relevant. The crux, as IndianaBoy put it, is relevant.

The main take-away from this specific case may be the effectiveness of deliberate fire delivered by a person with poise under pressure. Considering the ammo and equipment limitations, I reckon these two men did extremely well. The enemy may have granted them an advantage, of course, in being untrained and undisciplined.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

I think the missing key is mindset. It wasn’t the fact these guys had guns made them successful.

Early in this thread, I suggested that if you want to be relevant, compete. And that holds true four pages later.

There are way too many people that have fantasy league gunfighter mindsets. They watch a video, or read something and formulate a belief system based upon having no relevant experience on the topic. They believe absolute garbage like “whoever gets a COM hit first wins” or “if I have to use my sights I won’t be able to justify using deadly force”. And they get this belief stuck in their head that gunfights only occur At 30 feet, or easily my favorite “garlic breath distance”. That’s all well and great. Till it isn’t. Or the bad guy has armor. Or any other circumstance that is beyond the fantasy gunfight that they have been training for in their head.

They belief system surrounds training for average. Or I read a comment of below average. If you have a medical condition that requires surgery, do you want the surgeon that accepts an average mindset? Or do you want the guy that’s a professional and constantly trying to perfect his trade? And I guess most importantly, do you want the guy that buys really expensive scrubs, but doesn’t really try to improve his skills?

Competing is a cheap way to identify what you suck at. And then work to improve through dry fire and training. The less you suck, the more confident you’ll be. The more able you’ll be to step up when the time comes. Most people won’t compete because it is painful to the ego. I know, I have been there. But, I’ve noticed looking at .mil SOF guys are commonly running training that looks like………. A match. Today I was looking at the social media of 2nd Reconnaissance Battalion and they had pictures of marines running through stages on a timer.

This thread started out about LARPing. And now it’s moved to being relevant. These guys were relevant because of their mindset. I don’t think your average gun owner will share in the success without learning how to fail up front. Learn how to push threw failure. You don’t have to be a SWAT cop or special forces soldier to be a professional.

This thread has always been about mindset.

It has been about the minuteman mindset, and the broader swath of equipment, skills, tactics, teamwork, and organization that accompanies it. It has been about the mindset that would motivate someone to denigrate those with the minuteman attitude, by using terms like "LARP", to discourage their behavior.

I wish I would have avoided the LARP terminology, because it certainly made for a huge distraction, early in the thread, and prevented us from having a more meaningful discussion.

These Kibbutz defense stories show that men who had some supporting equipment, likely a defense/reaction plan in place, and some experience training with each other can be very successful.

Some discussion in the recent preparedness-themed threads also shed light on the fact that the broader aspects of the support structure are important to many of us. It seems more than a few members here appreciate the minuteman idea.

quote:

That’s all well and great. Till it isn’t. Or the bad guy has armor. Or any other circumstance that is beyond the fantasy gunfight that they have been training for in their head.

Indeed; though There's a potential catch22 there. It seems, to me, that it's often when someone does branch out into those important alternate scenarios that they run the risk of being labeled a "LARPER". Then we're presented with the very phenomenon that inspired this whole thread: the way that someone is choosing to broaden their training and experience level isn't approved of by a portion of the culture's population.

quote:

If you have a medical condition that requires surgery, do you want the surgeon that accepts an average mindset? Or do you want the guy that’s a professional and constantly trying to perfect his trade? And I guess most importantly, do you want the guy that buys really expensive scrubs, but doesn’t really try to improve his skills?

No argument there, of course. However, a minuteman, soldier, or marine (outside of specialized units) is probably trained to what you and others may consider an average level. They are trained across a spectrum of disciplines, and then train to maintain the desired level of proficiency. I will never advocate for not trying to improve a skill, though I will advocate for branching out, when a level of performance is achieved that suits the end goal. The minutemen of the 17th and 18th centuries likely weren't expert marksmen; they almost certainly had sustainment equipment and an understanding of tactics, and practiced said tactics with each other. It'd be awesome if we could all be expert shooters, across all possible circumstances; and we should strive for that. There's a point preceding that expert level of proficiency in one discipline, when it pays to invest time and effort in others. A soldier who can't administer basic first aid, navigate using map and tools, understand what he needs to sustain himself over a period of time, execute tactics with his teammates, and understand and use the equipment that enables all of that, isn't going to be an asset.

That seems awful militaristic: all those aspects. That's what this thread was about from the OP. It's been about the broader, more militaristic preparedness attitudes in contemporary America. It's never been about "self defense", the way that our American "gun culture" defines it (the garlic breath, no sight picture engagement). It's been about the body armor engagement. It's been about self defense like the Kibbutz men experienced it.

quote:

I don’t think your average gun owner will share in the success without learning how to fail up front. Learn how to push threw failure.

Perhaps some preparedness practitioners have been unfortunate enough to find themselves lumped in with the "YouTube warriors", who perhaps aren't training in a way that pushes themselves; I hope they aren't discouraged. I think anyone with a serious attitude is going to realize their shortcomings, and train to surpass them. Anyone who is applying the minuteman mindset ought to be also working in fostering a community of local like-minded folks (a struggle in itself). A group of people like that is going to push each other; they are going to compete. They are going to fail, and re-think techniques and strategies.

quote:

You don’t have to be a SWAT cop or special forces soldier to be a professional.

Indeed.

I appreciate the continued contributions to this thread, which have resulted in an evolving, constructive conversation. It's excellent to have input from different demographics of our American "gun culture". Thank you sigfreund and jljones, for the thought-provoking comments.

quote:

Indeed; though There's a potential catch22 there. It seems, to me, that it's often when someone does branch out into those important alternate scenarios that they run the risk of being labeled a "LARPER". Then the we're presented with the very phenomenon that inspired this whole thread: the way that someone is choosing to broaden their training and experience level isn't approved of by a portion of the culture's population.

Quite frankly, who gives a crap what other people think or label you? If you feel the need to train to a certain level then do it...the opinions of others are meaningless when you're fighting for your life. I'd rather have the skills and self-confidence that I have the ability to perform if I need to than the absence of criticism from people on the internet.

I've never been in a gunfight, but I've come close a couple of times, and conditions in every one of those situations was different. Distances ranged from actually entangled with the other guy to 50 yards. Sometimes we were in a house, sometimes in or around a vehicle, and sometimes we stood outside in the freezing cold for hours to the point that we were shaking and having difficulty even manipulating the gun. Lighting conditions varied from broad daylight to pitch black, and cover/concealment availability varied as well. There's no single scenario to train for. Every situation is different, and each of the ones I've been in or around has informed my gear selection and training regimen in a different way. This would be anything from working different drills to develop specific technical skills to something as simple as finding heavier insulated gloves and practicing shooting and manipulating the gun while wearing them.

Ultimately, my goal is for my level of proficiency and preparedness to be better than that of the bad guy. I'm never going to be the best, and there's always the chance that I'll face somebody who's better or who just gets plain lucky, but the better I get the less likely I am to encounter that person. The knowledge of my own capabilities helps provide the confidence necessary to walk into a situation knowing that I can bring the fight if I have to, and that if I do I'm going to win. And if I don't...well, that's on me and the opinion of the rest of the "culture" isn't going to matter anyway.

This thread, from the OP, has been a commentary on a phenomenon perceived in the "culture". It has not been whining due to being targeted by said phenomenon. I don't think any of us, here on SF, taking the time to comment in the training threads, are much worried about what others think of our training approaches. We come here for ideas, feedback, and, in this case, theoretical and philosophical discussion (I guess).

Your training theory, 92fstech, as influenced by your experiences, illustrates the fact that some compromises in one or more disciplines are potentially required, in order to allocate time and resources to addressing other aspects of the broader preparedness picture, which is becoming a theme.

Perhaps a few people still have a bit of interest in the general subject. From The Wall Street Journal:
============================

Security Fears Spur Israelis To Buy Guns

Hamas attacks have led citizens to boost their stash of arms for self-protection

BY MARGHERITA STANCATI

Giv’at Ada, Israel—Since the Oct. 7 attacks in southern Israel, Liran Kaminer has been sleeping with an ax, a knife and a first-aid kit within arm’s reach. He has stashed away empty beer bottles and gasoline for Molotov cocktails. And he has applied for a gun license.

“I am a hippie. I am peaceful, I don’t like this whole gun thing,” said Kaminer, who lives in central Israel. “But if the army cannot protect me, I have to protect myself.”

Many Israelis who never thought about owning a weapon are now applying for one. Israel’s right-wing government is encouraging civilians to arm themselves and relaxing rules to make it easier to own a gun. Nationwide, volunteers are forming self-defense units after the Hamas attacks took the army by surprise and left civilians helpless for hours.

Applications for a gun license have gone up 600% since the attack, a huge increase in a country where there are strict gun-control laws.

“Weapons in the right hands save lives,” said Itamar Ben-Gvir, the country’s minister of national security, who has made the arming of Israeli Jews his flagship policy. Recently, he took part in the distribution of rifles to Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank, where violence against Palestinians has surged.

The rise in gun-license applications also is raising concerns among some Israelis that the widespread arming of civilians could have dangerous con-sequences. On Nov. 30, an Israeli civilian used his personal weapon to shoot at Hamas militants who opened fire at passersby at a bus stop in Jerusalem, only to be shot and killed himself when Israeli forces mistook him for an attacker.

“We cannot give weapons to everyone. Just look at what is happening in the U.S. where weapons are given out very easily.…We don’t want to get into that situation,” said Yosef Sebdon, a retired brigadier general in the Israeli police. “I am very worried that innocent people will be killed.”

There is no right to carry a gun in Israel. Civilians qualify for a weapon only if they can prove they need a gun for security— if they live or work in border areas, for instance. According to a 2017 Small Arms Survey, a program of the Geneva Graduate Institute, there were about seven firearms for every 100 civilians, compared with roughly 120 for every 100 people in the U.S.

Since Oct. 7, the government has relaxed gun-ownership rules, sped up the application process for new licenses and supplied military-style rifles to new, rapid-response units staffed by local volunteers. It also has expanded the criteria for who can carry private firearms, including residents in additional geographical areas and people who got basic-combat military training.

According to government data, more than 265,000 Israelis applied for a gun license between Oct. 7 and early December, compared with about 36,000 earlier in the year. Around 85,000 licenses and conditional permits have been issued in the recent period.

Opponents of relaxing gun-control laws say it risks fueling violence between the country’s Jewish and Arab citizens, whose relationship is tense.

“These guns are not going to be used against Hamas, they are not going to the front line,” said Mohammad Darawshe, director of strategy at the Givat Haviva Center for Shared Society, which promotes Jewish-Arab coexistence. “Jewish citizens will be armed and on the other end there will be Arab citizens. That is a very scary thing.”

In the West Bank, the risk of confrontation is higher still. Since the outbreak of the war in Gaza, attacks by armed Israeli settlers against West Bank Palestinians have intensified, forcing over 1,000 Palestinians to flee their villages, the United Nations said.

The U.S. is stalling on the delivery of 24,000 rifles requested by Israel over concerns they could end up with settlers or with new local rapid-response units. The Biden administration is seeking further assurances from Israel about how the guns would be used.

On Oct. 7, Elad Portal sent WhatsApp messages to friends and acquaintances to find volunteers to establish a rapid-response unit in the city of Hadera. Recently, 10 of his neighbors gathered for a training session. “Pay attention to the firing line, don’t endanger friends!” said the instructor, a former member of the Israeli military’s special forces.

In Kibbutz Regavim, keeping residents safe became the priority after the Hamas attacks. About 30 residents volunteered to set up a rapid-response unit, whose members staff the entrance gate and go on patrols.

“People felt that what happened in the kibbutzim in the south could happen to our kibbutz, and started getting weapons,” said Shahar Butbul, a resident who helped set up the armed unit. Members are mostly men who have completed their mandatory military service and reserve duty, such as 66-year-old Eyal Nabet.

“Suddenly, after many years, we have to turn into soldiers, and it’s hard work,” said Nabet, who was born and raised in Regavim and fought in three wars in his youth. “It’s lucky that I can still run.”
—Ari Flanzraich and Shoshanna Solomon contributed to this article.

LINK

Link

quote:

The True Intent of the Democrats’ Anti-Militia Bill Is to Infringe on Firearms Training
January 29, 2024

As a law-abiding citizen of this great country, I can form my own militia if I so choose, appoint myself colonel, enlist my friends as privates or PFCs, and we can run around the woods until we all keel over from heatstroke or heart attacks – whatever comes first. It’s all perfectly legal, at least for now.

We have the right to criticize our government. We can sit around the campfire at our secret militia base nursing our sore muscles and fire ant bites and talk about how Joe walks like a penguin, or how it would take Kamala a good 20 minutes just to tell you you’re on fire. It’s all perfectly legal and protected speech, at least for now.

We have the right to train with our firearms. We can draw from a holster, shoot while moving, practice CQB and send as much lead downrange as our bank accounts will allow. It’s all perfectly legal conduct, at least for now.

However, a new bill making its way through Congress known as the “Preventing Private Paramilitary Activity Act of 2024,” would make all of this illegal or at least suspicious enough to draw scrutiny from the feds. More importantly, it would paint a target on the back of every single American gun owner, which is the actual intent of this ill-conceived and extremely unconstitutional legislation.

To be clear, if Joe Biden ever signs this bill, the second he puts down his crayon the feds will flock to local gun ranges in numbers that will make it nearly impossible for actual members to find a place just to park. This bill would give them license to investigate anyone who trains with a gun in order to determine whether they’re a militia member – and don’t think for a second that they won’t.

I saw that as well. It is very relevant to this discussion. Thank you for sharing it here.

The text...
https://www.congress.gov/bill/...house-bill/6981/text

And a snippet...
“(a) Offense.—It shall be unlawful to knowingly, in a circumstance described in subsection (b), while acting as part of or on behalf of a private paramilitary organization and armed with a firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or other dangerous weapon—

“(1) publically patrol, drill, or engage in techniques capable of causing bodily injury or death;

“(2) interfere with, interrupt, or attempt to interfere with or interrupt government operations or a government proceeding;

“(3) interfere with or intimidate another person in that person's exercise of any right under the Constitution of the United States;

“(4) assume the functions of a law enforcement officer, peace officer, or public official, whether or not acting under color of law, and thereby assert authority or purport to assert authority over another person without the consent of that person; or

“(5) train to engage in any activity described in paragraphs (1) through (4).


That #5 is the clever one. I doubt this thing will get any traction, but it's existence alone is unnerving. These folks are very confused.

I found myself thinking on this topic this morning, whilst walking amongst the chickens.

I think the phrase "ready; not eager" is a good way to identify an appropriate mindset and degree of training, when considering outcomes that have the potential to involve civilians in military-like activities.

Those who are eager for militaristic engagement within our country's borders, and ignore other, more practical/pragmatic, aspects of civilian preparedness are those who have the wrong idea.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
I think the phrase "ready; not eager" is a good way to identify an appropriate mindset and degree of training ....

I agree: very good.