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Discouraging training beyond "acceptable" citizen thresholds. How do we decide how militaristic a citizen's training ought to be? Login/Join 
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The conversation's original intent was to discuss the consequences of the term's use in the actual shooting "community", where it is often used to describe folks who make a habit of wearing "too much" tactical equipment, or otherwise "take themselves too seriously", as perceived by the term's user. The conversation has evolved to consider reasons why different folks choose to practice different things, and why some folks would discourage, or mock certain practices, when we are all such staunch advocates of our beloved Second Amendment, that was created to ensure that we can, because the founders thought we should.
 
Posts: 1252 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Yew got a spider
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I've never heard any kind of firearms training or even airsoft referred to as LARPing.

Im getting old. I thought the LARPers were basement dwellers who dress up and hit each other with foam swords in public.

I mean, I guess I can see LARPer being the next "mall ninja"...

I really don't care, I suppose. They're just words.
 
Posts: 4780 | Location: Colorado Springs | Registered: April 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
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Airsofters going 'mil-sim' or LARPing is decades old. I remember photos circulating even 20 years ago of airsofters using gear or clones of gear that even Special Forces would be envious of. And some of the rules they use is even if the mag for the airsoft gun can hold scores, if not hundreds of BBs, you are limited to what that real steel gun would have, I've watched some YouTube videos of Airsofter who are very good at it, and when he runs a ghilli suit, he has GoPors of numerous people walking 10-15 from him and oblivious to him being there. It can be fun to watch, especially when he and his team are playing in old Maginot Line forts. But of coarse for every serious Mil-Sim/LARPer out there, there are easily 100 people playing that look like the South Park teens from airsoft episode.

But as KSGM alludes to, there is a group called Cosplaytriots that have been popping up since COVID hit.


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 24838 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"Cosplaytriots"

Sweet. Ill be guarding and flipping burgers by the truck with my Hawaiian plate carrier.

I caint run like I use-ta.
 
Posts: 4780 | Location: Colorado Springs | Registered: April 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
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Something to be said about being the gray man....


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 24838 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am going to revise the thread title, and add a note to the OP. I think I made a mistake using the "LARP" acronym; it seems to be distracting members from the original intent of the discussion. I believe the acronym to have been introduced in our "community" by MIL/LE, who used it to denigrate citizens who trained beyond what is perceived to be normally acceptable thresholds, without being MIL/LE themselves. It went on to be adopted by citizens as well, who fancied poking fun at those same citizens. That phenomenon of discouraging training is what this thread is supposed to be about. It has also evolved to evaluate how different people consider the location of the line that, once crossed, has someone in the militaristic training territory that seems to make so many folks so uncomfortable. Terminology like LARP, try-hard, wannabe, and tacticool are all more-or-less synonymous in their use, in the world of firearms and tactical training. There was a thread in the lounge a few weeks ago, that vaguely considered the meaning of "tacticool". It was implied, at one point, that a prerequisite to more advanced training is the horticultural knowledge required to grow a tomato plant. While I agree that growing food is a very valuable thing, I don't understand why a citizen who has no firearms or tactical training, and no garden, is following the "rules", while someone who doesn't know the first thing about gardening but has an advanced knowledge of firearms use and associated tactics deserves a ribbing, unless they're MIL/LE. It seems to me that the latter citizen is much better off, himself, and potentially much more help to others, than the former. That same thread also saw a lot of mention of public appearance, which has little to do with the intent of this thread. More training doesn't mean someone is more likely to betray their level of training to the public; we all know that. IrishWind is right in saying we all ought to be the gray man; this might mean making your training more private too. Sometimes being the gray man everywhere but your local range(s) may not be gray enough; many ranges, even members-only ones, are still very public venues indeed.
 
Posts: 1252 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Yew got a spider
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I dunno, maybe you take dick remarks too seriously?

I've certainly been guilty of that.

If the discussion reaches a point where your views are invalid because you haven't been X or Y, maybe it's time to change the subject.

I know of local airsoft clubs that get as serious as you wanna get. Same with USPSA clubs and the like. I have been poked at for not being in the military or LE, but those guys are always shitheads.

Don't try to reason with shitheads maybe?
 
Posts: 4780 | Location: Colorado Springs | Registered: April 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I started this thread to explore the issue critically; not because I had experienced something personally. I saw, and still see, examples online, of the discouraging behavior, and I think it's counterproductive. I am trying to understand the motivation behind it. You may be right though; could be as simple as shitheads.
 
Posts: 1252 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bolt Thrower
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From what I see, it’s an age thing. People who grew up in the NRA generations full of anti milita and prepper propaganda are more likely to be against the actual intent of the second amendment, and mock it. People who grew up on COD and T Rex arms videos are more accepting of buying and training in fighting gear. Sadly the younger generations gravitate towards instagram and reddit rather than forums like SigForum.
 
Posts: 9665 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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grew up on COD and T Rex arms... rather than forums like SigForum.


I think it boils down further, to the GWOT. Even if tech and social media platforms grew exactly as they have, the "community" wouldn't be what it is, without the GWOT driving the industry and the mindset.

I agree, when it comes to SigForum. I think I (and perhaps you, Voshterkoff) represent the younger minority of active SF members. It's unfortunate that the trivial BS found elsewhere is apparently so attractive to other users. I have learned a lot here.
 
Posts: 1252 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Competitors may dry fire in their underwear for hours.
.


Don't judge me!
Jeez, you sound like my neighbors when I'm practicing in my front yard! Cool


I've been in a bunch of different categories when it comes to training.
Student
Assistant / safety officer
Instructor

In a nutshell- I don't care.
If you're safe and competent, knock your socks off! I'm not going to "discourage" anyone for wanting to improve their skill set.

That being said- if you're an insurance salesman from Topeka, about 100lbs over weight, can't run further than the couch to the fridge, and show up to an advanced CQB course looking like "MEAL Team 6" with $500 Crye pants on, well... Expect more than a few percent to bust your chops.

I was in a course years ago with what is commonly referred to in military and police circles as a "Gear Queer". Someone that's in it just to look cool and have all the high speed, most expensive gear on the market. 99% of the time they're all bark, no bite, as what this guy, a fellow police officer. Right before our first live fire, my partner (another former Marine, combat vet, and experienced street cop) and I went to lube our department guns (Vietnam era M-16a1's, triangular have guards, converted to single fire only) as they were dry as hell. Just a squirt or two of 30W motor oil in a spray bottle on the bench.
Mr Gear Queer, in his high end Tactical Tuxedo (Crye, Solomon, and all the other high $ gear) and his LWRC piston, PecQ, SureFire...
He "needs" to lube his gun with only the best, and breaks out some Slide Glide.
Well, long story short, he looses his firing pin retaining pin... $2000+ gun now rendered useless.
No extra parts kit either...

After a little chuckle at his expense, we got another pin and his gun up and running.

He couldn't believe that the guns that were way older than him, shot better and faster than his top end gear. Confused

A lot of people need to learn that it's not the gun or the gear, it's the one using it.

I'll post more later, I gotta go to work.


_____________________________________________________________________

"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 7592 | Location: Attempting to keep the noise down around Midway Airport | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
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Originally posted by CPD SIG:

A lot of people need to learn that it's not the gun or the gear, it's the one using it.


Nah, it’s easier to be butt hurt for being offended. It’s not the gear, mind you, it’s the fact that they can’t hit water if they fell out of a boat. And they are dressed like a best value delta force commando.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36394 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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jljones, as a current LE SWAT officer and owner/instructor at OpSpec, I am curious as to your outlook on the (revised) thread title. Is the sky the limit, for the citizenry, so long long as they go about it in a logical, progressive manner? Are there thresholds that a citizen ought not cross, because those aspects of weapons-handling and tactics are best left to the professionals? Obviously, someone who's tactically dressed to the nines, has a bad attitude, and "can't hit water if they fell out of a boat" is a doof. What if that same guy has a slightly better attitude and crushes it in your courses? IMO, he'd do well to be a bit "grayer" either way, but how would you consider a proficient, motivated, tactically-minded citizen with no MIL/LE background?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,
 
Posts: 1252 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I’ve gave my opinion a couple of times in this thread. Stereotypes exist for a reason. Dudes that show up dressed like they just walked out of being an extra on “SEAL Team” more often than can’t shoot. The real deal dudes that do this stuff for a living show up in flip flops and shorts. That’s my experience from 25 years. Goes for cops too. When a cop shows up to a match and he’s wearing the latest camouflage pants and a drop holster, he’s gonna finish last and that’s if he doesn’t get DQ’d.

But yet, the culture of the gun community just doesn’t understand the winning combination that has already been spelled out for them. They insist in playing dress up.

It’s pretty simple. People have egos. Their egos want to justify buying all this cool guy gear. Well, because it looks cool. But, it has been my experience that the people that parade around it it are the same ones that buy just a “little” more expensive gun to be better. Instead of spending the money on dry fire time or ammo.

I’m all for dudes buying gear. I’m of the opinion buy once, cry once. But, learn how to shoot first. Buy a Glock/M&P/320, ammo, a dry fire book, a couple of holsters. Take a class from a reputable instructor if you want.

But, all that takes work and commitment. No different than anything that takes skill. Much easier to feel better about your lack of skill by looking cool.

The truth is I can learn everything I need to know about a plate carrier or war belt in about an hour. I never have to leave my house, and I never have to fire a round. TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT!!!!




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36394 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I know you've participated already, and I appreciated your initial thorough response very much. I should have been a bit clearer in my recent post, and have since revised it slightly. I was hoping for your opinion and/or speculation on the bigger picture, presented by the revised thread title, and shift in thread direction. I am hoping to steer it away from the distracting LARP and dress-up phenomenons. Everyone's in agreement that high speed gear doesn't make a shooter or fighter. I hope to foster discussion about citizens taking the "minuteman" approach. Obviously firearms proficiency is highly relevant, but it becomes only one of multiple skill sets, in that context. For example, an infantry soldier has a certain level of firearms proficiency required for his job, and must also invest time and effort in training tactics, fieldcraft, and medical skills, among other things. I speculate, also, that a "rookie" SWAT officer is better off with a well-rounded skill set. An expert in weapons manipulation and shooting may be of little use on a SWAT call, if he lacks training in tactics, and doesn't have the right equipment to support a SWAT mission. This is, of course, fairly uninformed speculation.

I appreciate everyone's participation. I can always count on SF for an engaging discussion. I understand that this discussion's lack of a goal or "point" may be annoying to some. I just wanted to hear y'alls thoughts on an aspect of our "culture".
 
Posts: 1252 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Lets cook this goose with a different fuel source.

Why?

There is a skills continuum in the whole “modern day minuteman” idea. It’s the same skills continuum that exists in other areas. And it bears the same critique as those other areas. News flash- a certain percentage of LE tactical teams need to cease to exist. Why? Da militarization of da poleece? Nope. A percentage can’t perform to a basic standard in core skills necessary to be that professional. They probably are good hearted dudes trying to do the right thing for the right reasons. But, they are poorly supervised (or more likely poorly funded). Or a combination of both. And they deserve criticism.

The LARPING deserves the same criticism. Why? When that question is asked it generally results in the answers of “because 2nd Amendment” or “fuck you commie I’ll do it because I can”. Okay. Fair enough. But, when you look like a goon because you can’t hit the broadside of a barn you can expect critical responses.

What do you accomplish going to the range in kit? Honest question. Guys that do this for a living wear full kit on rare occasions. And it’s generally only if the training being conducted requires the level of protection, or if it’s an FTX. That’s it. Kit doesn’t become a factor of performance until 8-10 hours in. And then it becomes more about endurance and physical fitness. People that exercise in plate carriers don’t exercise often. It generally about being functional or if a specific workout calls for it (Murph).

Look at the gear. Wearing Crye G3 or G4 to the range instead of jeans or cargo pants. What does it get you? It does not affect how you pull the trigger. It doesn’t affect how I shoulder a rifle. To be honest, the reason I wear Cryes when I’m at work is comfort after 10-15 hours.

Plate carriers- everything you need to know about shooting in a plate carrier can be learned in about 15 minutes. It does not effect how you pull the trigger. It can affect how I shoulder a rifle. But, that can be worked out in about 15 minutes in dry fire. Plate carriers are basically pick a carrier from a reputable company, and buy the best plates (Lightest) you can afford.

Helmets- does it affect how I pull the trigger? No. Does it affect how I shoulder a rifle? No. So, training in a helmet has zero value. Buy one from a reputable company and buy the best helmet (lightest) you can afford.

Want to be modern day minuteman? Start shooting IDPA or USPSA. Dry fire 20 minutes a night, three days a week. Stop buying the latest gold barrel. Don’t hang a fucking MAWL on your rifle if you don’t have NODS. Spend the money on ammo. Being a “modern day minuteman” has become a source of mental masterbation about justifying equipment and parading around in said equipment on the range “because I can” instead of measuring the efficiency of the training being conducted and the priority of work. Once you up your game a bit, dry fire in kit every so often. And it’s really nothing more than making sure you kit is laid out in a logical order.

I’m more than happy to discuss kit and layouts to share my experiences if it’s beneficial to others.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36394 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bolt Thrower
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Originally posted by jljones:
a certain percentage of LE tactical teams need to cease to exist. Why? Da militarization of da poleece? Nope. A percentage can’t perform to a basic standard in core skills necessary to be that professional.


After the antics of 2020, all of the police in my state night as well be fired. Armed citizens concerned with the safety of their neighborhood were the only thing keeping malcontents out. Hell it was the neighbors of the Seattle Police chief that kept a convoy of BLM away. It might be different where you live Jones, but in my eyes the cops here are the larpers, beholden to politicians and useless. Your other points are valid.
 
Posts: 9665 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No doubt that a LOT of cops are larpers and very in need of critique.

No doubt.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36394 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It's potentially worth noting that no one has reciprocated my mention of tactics, medical skills, fieldcraft, etc, which I am sure current conversation participants are at least somewhat versed in. We still seem quite adhered to shooting proficiency, and the debate of it's supporting gear, and, to a lesser extent, clothing. Obviously a Soldier, SWAT officer, or Minuteman is made of more than exceptional marksmanship and a reasonable amount of squared-away practical gear and clothing. I maintain the speculation, using jones' employment circumstances, that a SWAT man with a "good" level of training and experience in a broader skill set makes for a more effective officer at the "target building" or active shooter scenario. I think it likely that an officer who's badass in every conceivable square range scenario, and has effective supporting equipment, is still going to be the butt of the joke, when he's thrust into a enveloping scenario in the shoot house, with other team members. "It's about more than just killing paper and your kit, slick." I am not trying to diminish the importance of weapon proficiency; I am proposing that, depending one one's goals, they might consider a point that their weapons skills are "good enough", and then broaden their focus, to encompass other aspects of what makes them effective at their respective "objective", while, of course, maintaining weapon skills already developed.

I wonder if the talking points are at all skewed by industries. The weapon and gear/clothing sectors are much more product/profit-driven than training in tactics, medical, or other skills. Also, training in any tactics almost always requires like-minded "teammates". LE/MIL has more opportunities here, than the aspiring Minuteman. Lord knows my Joe Blo middle class existence, with it's two jobs, wife, and almost two-year-old daughter, has me pretty-well engaged from 7AM-8PM five days a week. The other two days mean a reprieve from the more time consuming of the two jobs, but often fill up quick with catch-up on the family and house fronts. There's not a lot of time for extracurriculars, and coordinating with potential "teammates" with similar lives would be near-impossible.

Thanks again to jljones, Voshterkoff, CPD SIG, IrishWind, and Sigfreund, for your continued contributions to the conversation.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,
 
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