When it is said that established range safety procedures develop bad habits, that is definitely going against the norms. I get that the complaint isn’t the action of pulling the trigger itself, but the reasoning of why it’s bad absolutely makes no sense to me.

Pulling the trigger behind a visual check, witnessed by two parties is a tertiary check to ensure the status of the first two. If the fear is that it becomes mindless theatrics, then the problem is with the shooter and the safety officer.

Just replace the safety officer. Well, yeah that is a fix. However, positions of responsibility are becoming harder and harder to fill for the right reasons. I wish I could say that I’m as sharp on Day 15 of a 20 or 25 day range session as I am on Day 1. Or I’m as sharp with the 65 shooter as I am the first in a charity RnG match. Sadly, I am not. I wish I was. But, in both cases, finding highly qualified and motivated individuals to fill in for the right reasons is harder and harder to do.

As to department range sessions (or academy range sessions), there is absolutely reason to run cold ranges. Yep, we trust them every day to carry a loaded gun. But, any good range sessions should be an equal balance of dry fire work and live fire. Too many agencies try to chase skill with round count and it flat doesn’t work. I sometimes run cold ranges with my team. Because I recognize the need for dry work, and I am responsible for the safety of 15 guys. And those boys are close to becoming the fourth “Tier One” team in the state. It doesn’t matter how professional they are. Plus, there are courses of fire that are simpler to start with everyone unloaded. Where it comes down to me is to write smart lesson plans that minimize and limit downtime so the “unload show clear” makes sense and it’s just not for the purpose of running a cold range to run a cold range.

The bottom line to me is if you’re against it because it becomes mindless, then why wouldn’t you want the extra added step added in to ensure that what was done was actually done?

Oh and by the way, I look forward to these discussions. It always makes me think.

We do cold ranges too, and I agree that there are times where they are preferable or more appropriate. I've never been to an LE training, though, where they instructed us to point the gun downrange and pull the trigger as part of "unload and show clear." I'm not saying that that's necessarily the best way to do things...just that I've never seen it done in that context. I’ve only ever witnessed it in competition.

As I've said several times above, I don't hate the practice, or the added level of safety that it provides. Provided it's being done in a thoughtful and intentional way (like you said, "smart lesson plans") I'm perfectly good with it.

This whole discussion started over specific concerns about people (not the OP) holstering cocked DA/SA pistols. The more I look back through the discussion here, I’m seeing the inconsistencies in my position (that’s a roundabout way of saying I was wrong ). I argued against mindless rote patterns, but suggested exactly that as a solution to the problem. Instead of an over-reliance on repetition to solve the cocked DA/SA holstering issue, a more effective use of training time would probably be to emphasize slowing down and thinking through what is going on before making the decision to put the gun away.

So the next question is, what role does repetition and behavior pattern development play in good training? We want to build confidence, consistency, and familiarity…how do we do that without becoming thoughtless and/or complacent?

I started shooting USPSA in the early 90's.
In the western part of my state there was a club that had a "shoot house" constructed of earth filled stacked tires.
They would run at least one match stage every month in the shoot house.
If I recall correctly, the gun club and some local LE Agency jointly constructed the shoot house.
The shoot house had elevated catwalks above the shoot house so range officials could see the action and not be in the line of fire.
One particular match had moving targets in the shoot house. A competitor shot the moving targets, then saw motion overhead and shot the RO on the elevated catwalk.
The flurry of litigation closed the club permanently.
There is a reason USPSA has the rules that they do.
Including lowering the hammer/striker by pulling the trigger.

That story could serve as good promotional material for target identification training.

The shoot house at the match I attended had no such catwalk. It's walls were merely fabric stretched over wooden frames, suspended from an overhead grid framework. You only engaged from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock, relative to the original entry orientation (that's where the berms are), and the travel route and target placement more-or-less ensured that. The Safety followed you through.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
We do cold ranges too, and I agree that there are times where they are preferable or more appropriate. I've never been to an LE training, though, where they instructed us to point the gun downrange and pull the trigger as part of "unload and show clear."

I’ve done it since the early 2000’s. My first and probably earliest exposure was taking a class from Ernie Langdon. Our academy also does it, but I disagree with the way they do it.

Since Langdon’s class, I have copied off of his logic on it. The fact that sports medicine says it takes 5-10,000 repetitions to make something permanent. If you don’t take the sight picture and execute the proper press, you are throwing away a good rep.

Cops don’t get enough good reps, with the vast majority only training when they are told to. A watchful eye behind the line during the process allows the “Hey man, see that front sight dip? That’s why you’re struggling”

Yes, these are good discussions to have.
Competition/matches are different from other forms of shooting/training. No doubt. It goes against the grain to have all guns unloaded when you’re at a range! After all … we’re there to shoot, aren’t we?

When you’re the RSO, however, your perspective changes; Lots of people coming to you all day long -many whom you have never met- with guns in their hands or on their bodies.

Getting complacent leads to NDs. I’ve been around two of them.
No desire to be around a third one.

There is a gun club in Rochester, NY that holds winter indoor USPSA matches
on a pair of "square" ranges usually used for Bullseye competition.
They set up two stages and run all the competitors through those two stages.
Then they quickly tear down/reset with two new stages and run everyone through again.
It's a great way to get a classifier in and get some shooting when there is a foot
or more snow outside. Several years ago a competitor fumbled a draw or reholster
and dropped a semi automatic pistol on the concrete floor.
Unfortunately the particular pistol was not equipped with a firing pin safety/block.
The pistol discharged and killed the Range Official.

quote:

Since Langdon’s class, I have copied off of his logic on it. The fact that sports medicine says it takes 5-10,000 repetitions to make something permanent. If you don’t take the sight picture and execute the proper press, you are throwing away a good rep.

Cops don’t get enough good reps, with the vast majority only training when they are told to. A watchful eye behind the line during the process allows the “Hey man, see that front sight dip? That’s why you’re struggling”

Agree with that 100%. I have an older instructor buddy who's big on revolvers, and he always encouraged me to take that 6th or 7th "shot" when I'm on the range with a 5 or 6 shot wheelgun, even if I'm pretty sure it's going to be dry, because that's a free rep that you're throwing away if you just open the cylinder and dump them out. With a revolver you don't get the benefit of seeing the slide lock open on an empty chamber, either...you may be pretty sure you shot all of them, but there's always that nagging Dirty Harry in the back of your mind asking whether you shot 6 or only 5 , so there's still a bit of mental anticipation that the gun could discharge when you pull the trigger.

In my mind I was applying the concept of repetition to the DA/SA decocker issue...put enough reps in on the range doing it right that you establish a pattern to hopefully do the same thing under stress. But this discussion has made me think that they're different things...there's a difference between a developed skill and ingrained automation, and one shouldn't rely on the latter, especially for a critical safety step. While getting used to doing it consistently is vital, the best way to do that is by being conscious and deliberate about it in training. Repetition is going to be a part of that, but it needs to be conscious reps, and if you're thinking through what you're doing, doing it "the same way every time" isn't quite so important as understanding why and how you're doing it.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
there's a difference between a developed skill and ingrained automation

A good summary, and was the point I was agreeing with. Even based on my limited experience it’s much more unthinking habit than skill enhancement. If the process turns into a deliberate final dry fire repetition—and which is something I’ve never seen in practice and therefore was not familiar with—then good; I can understand its value and, more important, that it’s much less likely to turn into a dangerous practice.

On the other hand, if the final procedure to hopefully ensure that the gun is unloaded before leaving the firing line is look in the direction of the gun without actually seeing if the chamber is empty and then immediately drop the slide and pull the trigger as quickly as possible to avoid delaying the match, then that’s my objection if it can become a habit every time a slide is released. People can, and do develop habits that are a lot less unlikely than that.

I will reiterate, however, that the proper way to ensure that a gun is unloaded is to remove the magazine if possible, and then look and if necessary feel to make certain there is no ammunition remaining in the firearm. Of all the things I could have ever imagined being controversial about firearms safety that was just about at the very bottom of the list.